Air supply.

Moonbase would have to do the same as Skydiver; recycle the air.

The Interceptor silo`s would need to be pressurised, for `ground crews` to
gain
access for maintenance & missile re-arming.

On Sat, 5 Feb 2005 13:40:54 -00
"Kevin Lazenby" <[hidden email]> wrote:

>
> Moonbase would have to do the same as Skydiver; recycle the air.
>
Of course. But where to get the oxygen necessary to recycle
the air? You can't recycle breathable air from 'used' air,
you need to put some oxygen back in.

I've always thought, perhaps erroneously, that the
rectangular looking 'box' attached front and center at
moonbase was a pressurised garage of sorts for working
on the interceptors and moon-mobiles. Is this a
possibility?

Jeff

--- Kevin Lazenby <[hidden email]>
wrote:

>
> Moonbase would have to do the same as Skydiver;
> recycle the air.
>
> The Interceptor silo`s would need to be pressurised,
> for `ground crews` to
> gain
> access for maintenance & missile re-arming.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Kevin Lazenby" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2005 8:40 AM
Subject: [SHADO] Air supply.


>
> Moonbase would have to do the same as Skydiver; recycle the air.
>
> The Interceptor silo`s would need to be pressurised, for `ground crews` to
> gain
> access for maintenance & missile re-arming.
>
>


-------------------------------------------------------------


There are ways to scrub and treat the air to recycle the un-used oxygen
in it after respiration. People only "use" about 4-6% of the oxygen out of
every breath they take, out of the approx. 21% available. That leaves about
16% still left in it by content that you exhale. The reason we can't keep
sucking on the same air in a paper bag is because of the CO2 we dump into
it. The high CO2 content is what makes you feel suffocated when you try to
rebreath air like that.

Your body is actually un-able to detect the lack of oxygen in the air it
breathes, it only goes by the CO2 content to regulate respiration. So if you
were to rebreath the same air, but only scrubbing out the excess CO2 w/out
replacing the oxygen, you would simply pass out, blissfully unaware that you
were suffering from oxygen starvation. Many inexperienced general aviation
pilots have had accidents in this way by not going on the bottle at high
altitudes.

Efficient semi-closed rebreather systems are made for closed habitats
and even scubadivers (like CisLunar Diving gear for instance) that scrub out
the CO2 from the air, and replace the oxygen actually consumed by the body
by a trickle feed. Thus a small supply of oxygen can be made to go a long
way in life support. Other fully closed systems can use bio or chemical
means to generate oxygen from solid chemicals, or by other means to convert
the respiratory waste products back into breathable oxygen. Nuclear
submarines, and presumably moonbases and space stations would use those
methods.

BTW, if you're interested, check the files section of the web site, I
once uploaded a possible floorplan of the interceptor bays and undergound
hanger that would accomodate all those needs. You can't pressurise the whole
silos and bay, but you can have a large room that you crane or tow the
vehicle into, pressurize it there, and technicians could work on it in their
shirtsleeves. Much less of a pressurization task than the whole interceptor
bay.

Simple tasks like bomb loading could be done by a guy in a pressure suit
driving a bomb loader mule. The Air Force has specialized mule-trucks for
handling bombs and raising them into position under the wing. With a little
training, a guy in a space suit could easily do it. A second guy would stand
there to pull the pins and plug any needed connections.

Dave H. : )

Underground moonbases, efficient air supply circulation systems. Thanks guys
for all the ideas! It really does help in fan fiction writing ;-)

Samantha

--- In [hidden email], "Samantha Peterson" <lestat117@i...>
wrote:
> Underground moonbases, efficient air supply circulation systems.
Thanks guys for all the ideas! It really does help in fan fiction
writing ;-) <

One method of obtaining oxygen that hasn't been mentioned yet (I
think) and that was much in vogue in SF and for people planning real
Moonbases at about the time that the series was made was to get it
out of moonrock. There can be a lot of oxygen in rock -- metal
oxides, etc. -- and so the idea was to find the right kind of rock
and extract the oxygen from it; also, possibly, to extract water from
moonrock and then use electrolysis to break it into hydrogen (fuel!)
and oxygen. Then use the aforementioned efficient recirculation
systems, plant respiration, etc., to keep the air in the base
breathable. But there will be losses, and so a regular supply will be
needed, and where better to find it than in the Moon itself?

FWIW, this idea has also been postulated as an important part of any
manned Mars expedition; it's _so_ much easier to get there if you
don't have to lug everything needed for the return trip with you!

Phil

----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil" <[hidden email]>
>
> One method of obtaining oxygen that hasn't been mentioned yet (I
> think) and that was much in vogue in SF and for people planning real
> Moonbases at about the time that the series was made


People running real moonbases at the time? Like who?

Phil said 'planning', not 'running'. : )

Jeff
--- D Persica <[hidden email]> wrote:

Never mind. I misread. I see now you said "planning" not "running."
Time for new glasses.


----- Original Message -----
From: "D Persica" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 11:30 AM
Subject: Re: [SHADO] Re: Air supply.

--- In [hidden email], "Phil" <atcliffe@p...> wrote:
>
> One method of obtaining oxygen that hasn't been mentioned yet (I
> think) and that was much in vogue in SF and for people planning
real
> Moonbases at about the time that the series was made was to get it
> out of moonrock. There can be a lot of oxygen in rock -- metal
> oxides, etc. -- and so the idea was to find the right kind of rock
> and extract the oxygen from it; also, possibly, to extract water
from
> moonrock and then use electrolysis to break it into hydrogen
(fuel!)
> and oxygen. Then use the aforementioned efficient recirculation
> systems, plant respiration, etc., to keep the air in the base
> breathable. But there will be losses, and so a regular supply will
be
> needed, and where better to find it than in the Moon itself?
>
> FWIW, this idea has also been postulated as an important part of
any
> manned Mars expedition; it's _so_ much easier to get there if you
> don't have to lug everything needed for the return trip with you!

Just like in "Robinson Crusoe on Mars".

Nick

I agree with everything you wrote except for the following:

davrecon wrote:

> Your body is actually un-able to detect the lack of oxygen in the air it
>breathes, it only goes by the CO2 content to regulate respiration. So if you
>were to rebreath the same air, but only scrubbing out the excess CO2 w/out
>replacing the oxygen, you would simply pass out, blissfully unaware that you
>were suffering from oxygen starvation. Many inexperienced general aviation
>pilots have had accidents in this way by not going on the bottle at high
>altitudes.
>

In actual fact, the body has receptors for O2 as well as CO2. If the
atmosphere is low on O2 percentage, a person will begin to
hyperventilate to increase the amount of oxygen intake. If there is too
much CO2, a person will hyperventilate to remove the excess CO2.
However, some people with lung disease do not change their breathing
pattern if they have too much CO2, and chronically have an excess up to
twice what a "normal" person has. The only regulating factor for them is
the O2 receptors. In my experience as a Respiratory Therapist, I
actually know a person who committed suicide by increasing the amount of
oxygen he was breathing and, since his body did not feel he needed to
breathe, he quit breathing and literally "went to sleep" and died when
his CO2 reached a fatal limit.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene R. Dahl" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2005 9:22 PM
Subject: Re: [SHADO] Air supply.


>
> I agree with everything you wrote except for the following:
>
> davrecon wrote:
>
> > Your body is actually un-able to detect the lack of oxygen in the air
it
> >breathes, it only goes by the CO2 content to regulate respiration. So if
you
> >were to rebreath the same air, but only scrubbing out the excess CO2
w/out
> >replacing the oxygen, you would simply pass out, blissfully unaware that
you
> >were suffering from oxygen starvation. Many inexperienced general
aviation
----------------------------------------------------------

Maybe perhaps "un-able" was the wrong choice of words right there. But
the O2 levels is an automatic and unconscious regulator, it's like the body
is altering it's responce without necessarily notifying us as the conscious
person.... Whereas the CO2 level is a very conscious and alarming one.

Even using the above, would that scene with Col. Gray suffocating in
the moonbase sphere make sense with him clutching and grasping at his
throat? He would have just continued sleeping peacefully until he expired.

When we were in the altitude chambers and they were taking the air away
from us, we never felt the lack of oxygen in the distressing way that we
felt CO2 build-up. If the guys were breathing faster (from O2 triggered
hyperventilation as you say), they, and I, never really noticed it because
of the general feeling of well being we usually seemed to feel, at least
until they taught us what to look for in ourselves. The cues were all
subtle. Unless an instructor actually went over and placed the mask back on
a recruit's face, he would simply flounder and giggle before he passed
out....but the guy always seemed happy, uncaring, and undistressed over his
situation.

The body's CO2 alarm is so much more visible and distressing to us than
lacking oxygen, which is the way our manuals and the flight surgeons also
used to explain it to us. The O2 regulation seemed more based on the body's
metabolic need (like from running or increased physical excertion) than an
emergency response ("Oh My God, I Can't Breath!!!" .... Claw For Air). If O2
levels fell short, for whatever reason, we simply faded out and eventually
collapsed. If CO2 levels build up, we feel a very immediate and unpleasant
reaction and severe distress.

In the Navy, sailors are taught to enter long sealed and unused void
spaces in ships with caution, because if oxygen levels are depressed in
there, they can collapse inside there and die undetected. Why? Because the
body will not alarm him that he is in an oxygen insufficient environment.

Divers are cautioned against using Nitrox and other oxygen enriched
mixures at greater depths because of the poisoning effects of excess O2, and
pilots are cautioned against operating at high altitudes without supplement
because of inadequate O2, because damage is inflicted, or your facilities
are impaired without your awareness of it. That is why people need special
training in dealing with it as a safety issue, whereas nobody needs to be
taught how to react to being smothered - if the CO2 builds up in your blood
you know it right away and with a vengence.

Dave H.