Conflict episode

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Conflict episode

Ron DeMedeiros-5

I was just watching the episode Conflict and was wondering if the references
to reentry angle are bloopers. Freeman mentions the spacecraft's reentry
angle is too shallow. At this point, I think the entry angle was something
like 7 degrees, Colonel Freeman tells Foster to cut back to 5 degrees.

I assume the lower the value, the shallower the reentry angle is. To me it
is like the grade percentage of a road. If the grade is 5%, it isn't as
steep as a road with a 7% grade.

Does anybody know if this is a blooper, or if the terminology used in the
episode was correct?


Ron
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Re: Conflict episode

Marc Martin
Administrator
Ron writes:
>I was just watching the episode Conflict and was wondering if the references
>to reentry angle are bloopers.

That flight path angle gauge has always had me stumped. There are 4
quadrants, each labeled from 0 to 9. It doesn't really make any
sense to me *what* they're trying to measure. The numbers on the
gauge do correspond with the angles that they state verbally in the
episode, but you're right -- those angles don't correspond to
anything I know of in "the real world". In the aerospace industry,
a flight path angle of zero degrees means that you're flying
horizontally, with 90 degrees being straight up and -90 straight
down. In UFO, it seems that horizontal corresponds to 9 degrees,
while flying straight down corresponds to 0 degrees. When the first
lunar shuttle is destroyed, they're coming in too steep at 3 degrees,
and Foster barely survives at a slightly less steep angle of 4
degrees, while the correct angle seems to be 6, and Foster's "too
shallow" angle is 8 degrees. It's certainly not consistent with
anything that I know in the real world, but I'd hesitate to call it a
"blooper"... just something unique to the world of "UFO"... :-)

(especially since the episode is self-consistent throughout)

Also, that phrase "bounce off the Earth's atmosphere" left me
wondering for years if such a thing was really possible... and to
those of you *still* wondering, no, you really cannot "bounce" off
the Earth's atmosphere. You *can* stay in orbit and fail to reenter,
but there's no "bouncing"!

--
Marc Martin, [hidden email]
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Re: Conflict episode

Pam McCaughey
In reply to this post by Ron DeMedeiros-5
Hi Ron, from what I recall, shallow re-entry angles are very dangerous
because they mean the spacecraft will "bounce" off the earth's atmosphere
and careen off into outer space. This info seemed esp important to the
astronauts of Apollo 13 when they were trying to get back home with limited
power source and limited computer ability.

Pam


----------
>From: "Ron DeMedeiros" <[hidden email]>
>To: <[hidden email]>
>Subject: [SHADO] Conflict episode
>Date: Fri, Nov 10, 2000, 12:25 AM
>

>
>I was just watching the episode Conflict and was wondering if the references
>to reentry angle are bloopers. Freeman mentions the spacecraft's reentry
>angle is too shallow. At this point, I think the entry angle was something
>like 7 degrees, Colonel Freeman tells Foster to cut back to 5 degrees.
>
>I assume the lower the value, the shallower the reentry angle is. To me it
>is like the grade percentage of a road. If the grade is 5%, it isn't as
>steep as a road with a 7% grade.
>
>Does anybody know if this is a blooper, or if the terminology used in the
>episode was correct?
>
>
>Ron
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: Conflict episode

Marc Martin
Administrator
I've been thinking a bit more about about this flight path angle
thing in CONFLICT. It's quite possible that what they are calling
"flight path" in UFO is actually what the aerospace industry calls
"angle of attack". If this is true, then what we see in UFO makes a
lot more sense.

The angle of attack is the angle between the direction you are
travelling and the direction of the longitudinal axis of your
vehicle. So if you are travelling at an angle of -45 degrees and
your vehicle is pointed at -35 degrees, then your vehicle's angle of
attack is +10 degrees. In an airplane, the angle of attack is used
to generate lift, an upwards force which keeps it up in the air.

In UFO, the angle of attack of the lunar module is a critical factor
in slowing it down from "space speeds" to "earth speeds". The
shallower you fly, the higher the angle of attack (like the 8 degrees
we saw on the gauge), and the flat surface of the bottom of the lunar
module would generate more lift, which *could* cause the lunar
modules to "skip" like a rock thrown into the water at a shallow
angle. A steeper reentry would cause a lower angle of attack (like
the 3 degrees we saw on the gauge), and the flat surface on the
bottom would not generate as much lift, which means the lunar module
would not slow down enough during reentry, and the high speeds and
would cause the vehicle to overheat and burn up in the Earth's
atmosphere.

I should stress again, that although the lunar module could indeed
"skip" like a rock thrown in the water, it would never be flung back
into space due to this lift, just like a rock would never get flung
high into the air by skipping on the water.


Pam writes:
>This info seemed esp important to the
>astronauts of Apollo 13 when they were trying to get back home with limited
>power source and limited computer ability.

Yes, but on Apollo 13, I think that critical angle was indeed the
"flight path angle", which determined whether their trajectory would
successfully make it into the Earth's atmosphere, or whether they
would miss the atmosphere entirely and be stuck in space. Such a
thing is determined when you're still far out in space, not when
you're a minute from reentry. On Apollo 13, the concern was with the
direction the vehicle was travelling. On UFO, the concern was with
the direction the vehicle was pointing. Two different things.

So, I guess the gauge really *does* make sense if you think of these
angles as "angles of attack", and not "flight path angles".

Ron, are you sorry that you brought this subject up? :-)

--
Marc Martin, [hidden email]
(who once had a job calculating reentry trajectories of future space vehicles)
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Re: Conflict episode

Tafkar
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Re: Conflict episode

Pam McCaughey
In reply to this post by Ron DeMedeiros-5
Thanks, Marc for addressing this issue. I think its interesting that UFO did
try, like Trek, to deal realistically with legitimate scientific details. It
makes the story more believable, and adds to the plot of the episode. There
are some who consider sci-fic to be a waste of time (saying the future has
not turned out as writers/TV shoews depicted it), but in fact this is
something of a mistake. UFO predicted cordless and cell phones, video
conferencing, desktop computers, etc. Trek foretold cell phones or
communicators also, laptop computers, the electronic gadgets courier company
drivers use to get you to affix your signature electronically, hypro-sprays,
and many other items we now take for granted. I say today's science-fiction
becomes tomorrow's science fact.

Pam
----------
>From: Marc Martin <[hidden email]>
>To: [hidden email]
>Subject: Re: [SHADO] Conflict episode
>Date: Fri, Nov 10, 2000, 8:59 AM
>

>I've been thinking a bit more about about this flight path angle
>thing in CONFLICT. It's quite possible that what they are calling
>"flight path" in UFO is actually what the aerospace industry calls
>"angle of attack". If this is true, then what we see in UFO makes a
>lot more sense.
>
>The angle of attack is the angle between the direction you are
>travelling and the direction of the longitudinal axis of your
>vehicle. So if you are travelling at an angle of -45 degrees and
>your vehicle is pointed at -35 degrees, then your vehicle's angle of
>attack is +10 degrees. In an airplane, the angle of attack is used
>to generate lift, an upwards force which keeps it up in the air.
>
>In UFO, the angle of attack of the lunar module is a critical factor
>in slowing it down from "space speeds" to "earth speeds". The
>shallower you fly, the higher the angle of attack (like the 8 degrees
>we saw on the gauge), and the flat surface of the bottom of the lunar
>module would generate more lift, which *could* cause the lunar
>modules to "skip" like a rock thrown into the water at a shallow
>angle. A steeper reentry would cause a lower angle of attack (like
>the 3 degrees we saw on the gauge), and the flat surface on the
>bottom would not generate as much lift, which means the lunar module
>would not slow down enough during reentry, and the high speeds and
>would cause the vehicle to overheat and burn up in the Earth's
>atmosphere.
>
>I should stress again, that although the lunar module could indeed
>"skip" like a rock thrown in the water, it would never be flung back
>into space due to this lift, just like a rock would never get flung
>high into the air by skipping on the water.
>
>
>Pam writes:
>>This info seemed esp important to the
>>astronauts of Apollo 13 when they were trying to get back home with limited
>>power source and limited computer ability.
>
>Yes, but on Apollo 13, I think that critical angle was indeed the
>"flight path angle", which determined whether their trajectory would
>successfully make it into the Earth's atmosphere, or whether they
>would miss the atmosphere entirely and be stuck in space. Such a
>thing is determined when you're still far out in space, not when
>you're a minute from reentry. On Apollo 13, the concern was with the
>direction the vehicle was travelling. On UFO, the concern was with
>the direction the vehicle was pointing. Two different things.
>
>So, I guess the gauge really *does* make sense if you think of these
>angles as "angles of attack", and not "flight path angles".
>
>Ron, are you sorry that you brought this subject up? :-)
>
>--
>Marc Martin, [hidden email]
>(who once had a job calculating reentry trajectories of future space vehicles)
>
>
>
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Re: Conflict episode

Pam McCaughey
In reply to this post by Ron DeMedeiros-5
Hi Rob - thanks for the extra info on the Clarke Belt! That's what I love
about these fan sites - a person can read new ideas and/or info all the
time! Pam
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Re: Conflict episode

jamesgibbon
In reply to this post by Pam McCaughey
"Pam McCaughey" wrote:
> Thanks, Marc for addressing this issue. I think its interesting that UFO did
> try, like Trek, to deal realistically with legitimate scientific details. It
> makes the story more believable, and adds to the plot of the episode. There
> are some who consider sci-fic to be a waste of time (saying the future has
> not turned out as writers/TV shoews depicted it), but in fact this is
> something of a mistake. UFO predicted cordless and cell phones, video
> conferencing, desktop computers, etc.

Hi Pam,

This is interesting - where in UFO do we see desktop computers?
As
far as I can recall, it's always 'the computer' implying a
central,
monolithic sort of thing.

I totally agree on your general point about sci-fi - I often
think
that programmes like Star Trek inspire scientists and designers
to
come up with things in 'real life' that they are familiar with
from
fiction. It's fair to say that some sci-fi writers are
visionaries
in the true sense of the word - Isaac Asimov and Arthur C Clarke
spring to mind in particular. Did I spell Asimov right? Doesn't
look right the way I've typed it :)

Cheers
James
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Re: Conflict episode

anthonyappleyard <MCLSSAA2@fs2.mt.umist.ac.uk>
In reply to this post by Ron DeMedeiros-5
James Gibbon <[hidden email]> wrote:-
> ... Did I spell Asimov right? Doesn't look right the way I've typed it :)

That spelling is correct.