Re: amnesia drug

Lieve <[hidden email]> wrote:-
> Well, Pam said she thought [amnesia drugs] didn't exist. But surely there are
> well-defined circumstances in which people get amnesia. Too much alcohol
> has that effect, maybe certain drugs do too, I wouldn't know. I mean the
> kind of drugs that are illegal. ...

Someone at work here had an idea of getting me to write a semi-sentient
computer program. As expected, it proved impossible, but in the course of
chasing it up in the university library I learned a fair amount about neuro-
anatomy and neuro-cybernetics. It might be possible for a drug to wipe out
short-term memory (which lasts only a few minutes). But I see no way for any
chemical to do what SHADO's drug does. Wiping out selectively the last 12
hours would need using the brain's intelligent mechanism to distinguish that
day's memories from old memories, and that would need hypnosis or similar.

Hi Anthony - I agree that the theory of the amnesia drug is tenuous at best,
but the idea was originally created as a plot device. Anyhoo, the Rohypnol
(esp if added to booze) is pretty sneaky, has little or no taste, I
understand. It's at least a possibility. I suppose SHADO injects it right
into the poor slob's bloodstream? I'm trying to bridge the gap in my mind
between possible drug realities and more powerful derivatives (sp?) and plot
devices to solve sticky writing probs. After all, anti-depressants (sp?)
like Prozac have derivatives as well,which remove some of the nastier side
effects, and provide better relief to people with individual probs. Designer
drugs, both OTC and illegal are here to stay. SHADO probably would have top
chemists working to develop more powerful stuff than the normal population
would come into contact with.

As you've written "It might be possible for a drug to wipe out
>short-term memory (which lasts only a few minutes). But I see no way for any
>chemical to do what SHADO's drug does. Wiping out selectively the last 12
>hours would need using the brain's intelligent mechanism to distinguish that
>day's memories from old memories, and that would need hypnosis or similar."
you've presented an important question about the whole idea of
amnesia-promoting drugs. I cannot imagine a drug capable of wiping selected
memories as you've stated - only the events of a short-term time period. I
know humans can sub-conciously wipe out their own selected memories if they
cannot cope with some extreme trauma. But, that's not a controlled desire.
At least not something we can choose consciously (sp?) to do. So we're left
with permitting ourselves the luxury of accepting an amnesia drug as a story
engine, like the transporters in Trek, I guess.

Pam

Pam wrote:
>Hi Anthony - I agree that the theory of the amnesia drug is tenuous at best,
>but the idea was originally created as a plot device. Anyhoo, the Rohypnol
>(esp if added to booze) is pretty sneaky, has little or no taste, I
>understand. It's at least a possibility. I suppose SHADO injects it right
>into the poor slob's bloodstream? I'm trying to bridge the gap in my mind

Didn't they give it in someone's coffee in one episode, and inject them
with it in another? That's a bit incongruous really, if this is so. Unless
they had two different amnesia drug preparations?

>between possible drug realities and more powerful derivatives (sp?) and plot
>devices to solve sticky writing probs. After all, anti-depressants (sp?)
>like Prozac have derivatives as well,which remove some of the nastier side
>effects, and provide better relief to people with individual probs. Designer
>drugs, both OTC and illegal are here to stay. SHADO probably would have top

OTC? Oh - over the counter. I really need a book with common abbreviations.

>chemists working to develop more powerful stuff than the normal population
>would come into contact with.

In my opinion SHADO only does research into stuff that has to do with
aliens, but it would have access to all the latest data from research from
all the member countries, be it drugs or technology....


>So we're left
>with permitting ourselves the luxury of accepting an amnesia drug as a story
>engine, like the transporters in Trek, I guess.

Hypnosis would do the trick, wipe out as much as needs to be wiped out. But
then another hypnotist could retrieve the memories... hardly a fool-proof
method. While a drug that nobody knows (since it doesn't exist :-) can be
given specific properties to give the desired effect. Just as technology is
adapted to have the weapons or spacecraft (and aircraft or whatever) that
the author needs. Wonderful world, fiction, isn't it? :-)

BTW, the transporters in Trek could well work one day, scientists are
working on the quantum teleporter still, I assume.
In Star Trek, Scotty's transporter room dematerialises crew members and
reconstitutes them elsewhere. The quantum teleporter doesn't quite do that.
But it can send the atomic "vital statistics" you'd need to put all of the
crew member's body parts in the right place and in an identical condition.
Or..... it would if it could handle more than a single atom at a time :-)
Let's continue this part of the discussion in a 100 years...

CU

Lieve




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I recall some time ago about research into hypnosis under drug influence that
indicated (as with alcohol) that memories suppressed under drug influence were
inordinately difficult to access without the use of the same drug durting the
recall procedure.
Therefore if a combination of hypnosis and drugs were used by SHADO to block
recent memories, the same, non-OTC/non-standard drug would be needed to unblock
those memories.
Besides, it is assumed that in the 'real world' the CIA, KGB and other related
agencies had(have) access to similiar mind altering methods. The Manchuruan
Candidate wasn't simply made up out of thin air. (The technique described
involved drugs, hypnosis and physical deprivation to not only block memories but
reprogram the subjects to commit acts against their natural bias.)

Dandello

Lieve wrote:

you wrote:
>I recall some time ago about research into hypnosis under drug influence that
>indicated (as with alcohol) that memories suppressed under drug influence were
>inordinately difficult to access without the use of the same drug durting the
>recall procedure.
> Therefore if a combination of hypnosis and drugs were used by SHADO to block
>recent memories, the same, non-OTC/non-standard drug would be needed to
>unblock
>those memories.

Was there ever any mention of hypnosis in SHADO? I always thought Jackson
would make a great hypnotist, the man is just a little creepy and comes
over as a very strong character, which must be handy when hypnotising people.
Actually, when I was at school, I tried hypnosis with my friends, but it
wasn't very successful. The ultimate idea back then was not to have to
study for exams, but hypnotise the teacher to give us the results as we
were sitting said exams. We failed to accomplish this, needless to say :-)
Anyway, what you're saying, Deborah, is that the method SHADO used would
have been quite safe? UNLESS said drug was very common - which is wasn't.

>Besides, it is assumed that in the 'real world' the CIA, KGB and other related
>agencies had(have) access to similiar mind altering methods. The Manchuruan
>Candidate wasn't simply made up out of thin air. (The technique described
>involved drugs, hypnosis and physical deprivation to not only block
>memories but
>reprogram the subjects to commit acts against their natural bias.)

Why does this bring Stanley Kubrick's Clockwork Orange to mind? That was
the opposite idea (make a good guy out of a bad guy, kind of), but in
principle more or less the same.
It must be fun to work for an agency like SHADO or one of the spy agencies,
these guys can do research into all kinds of things for the good of the
nation or of mankind, and get away with just about anything.... I wonder if
the CIA and the KGB have similar budget problems as SHADO had? Now that was
something else that seemed incongruous. IF you do something, do it well, or
not at all - yet they restricted what SHADO could do by not giving them the
money they needed for certain projects (well, not until the end of the
episode :-)
This could have meant loss of lives - why set up SHADO then not give it
what it needs? No wonder Straker is saving the pennies for that base on
Pluto (although I would never choose Pluto, it's too far out. How about Io
or Titan or one of the other moons or planets close by?)

CU

Lieve


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* Lieve Peten, Vlaanderen, Belgium : Mailto:[hidden email]
* Internet Sites link page: http://pinball.iwarp.com/mysites.html
* The Pinball Site * Loch Ness + UFOs in Belgium * Vangelis *
* Nikita * UFO TV-series * Animated Gifs * Andrea Bocelli *

Lieve, in your sig you refer to Nikita. I see many parallels (sp?) with
UFO there, no aliens though.

Paul

> * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> * Lieve Peten, Vlaanderen, Belgium : Mailto:[hidden email]
> * Internet Sites link page: http://pinball.iwarp.com/mysites.html
> * The Pinball Site * Loch Ness + UFOs in Belgium * Vangelis *
> * Nikita * UFO TV-series * Animated Gifs * Andrea Bocelli *

Paul wrote:
>Lieve, in your sig you refer to Nikita. I see many parallels (sp?) with
>UFO there, no aliens though.


Secret organisations are fun and they often seem to deploy similar methods.
Mind you, what attracted me to Nikita (the series) most was Michael. <swoon>
They were going to stop after Season 4, but got so many reactions from fans
that they decided to make a sort of short Season 5, only 8 episodes.

CU

Lieve




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Lieve wrote:

> Was there ever any mention of hypnosis in SHADO? I always thought Jackson
> would make a great hypnotist, the man is just a little creepy and comes
> over as a very strong character, which must be handy when hypnotising people.
> Anyway, what you're saying, Deborah, is that the method SHADO used would
> have been quite safe? UNLESS said drug was very common - which is wasn't.

Even if it isn't specifically mentioned, I suspect that the amnesia drug HAS to be
combined with some other technique, else you have to have a good cover story to
explain why the person has amnesia. (All three members of the Dalotech team had
concussions during their flight home? Anoxia during the destruction of their base?
They would have needed to have alternative memories implanted or else the amnesia
would have caused more problems than it solved.)

All bureaucracies create funding problems. I'm sure that with the secret budgets of
both the CIA and KGB, there was infighting concerning which projects would be
funded and which wouldn't.
One other problem comes down to this: without oversight groups, even the most
ethical and well funded researcher can slide into questionable research practices
'for the greater good'.
Since the CIA, KGB and other black ops groups have no such over-sight groups, they
were(are) frequently accused of unethical research using people.

Dandello

----- Original Message -----
From: Lieve <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2000 9:53 AM
Subject: Re: [SHADO] Re: amnesia drug


> Secret organisations are fun and they often seem to deploy similar methods.
> Mind you, what attracted me to Nikita (the series) most was Michael.<swoon>
>They were going to stop after Season 4, but got so many reactions from fans
> that they decided to make a sort of short Season 5, only 8 episodes.

Ah yes, Michael, one of my Quebec compadres.

In "Nikita" he seems to have only one emotion.

Did a pretty good cultural spot about Rocket Richard, though. You
probably haven't seen that one.

I prefer Peta, myself, she's babeliscious.

Paul

Paul wrote:

>Ah yes, Michael, one of my Quebec compadres.
>
>In "Nikita" he seems to have only one emotion.

Well, in FICTION (as opposed to real life) I'm always attracted to the same
type of guy. Guys like Spock, Straker, Michael. They all appear unemotional
and to be all about business, their cause is always something better,
something higher. In real life, so many people seem to have as only cause
to earn (lots of) money, right?
The fun about guys like Straker and Michael and Spock is to try and find
their vulnerable spot. To see their faces when they thing nobody is looking
and see that one flash of emotion most people don't see is there. I didn't
keep many episodes of Star Trek, but I do have the one where Spock is on
Vulcan, fighting Jim for that woman. Most women like the CCA-OK ep a lot
since that shows Straker's vulnerable side. And the 'Not Was' episode of
Nikita is one of the most popular amongst Michael fans. Michael does show
his true personality there (after having lost his memory :-)
I hate open, public displays of emotion, I think that should be kept
private. Stiff upper lip and all that. In reality that is difficult to do,
so characters that are written that way are very attractive. Kudos for the
actors for doing it so well!

Mind you, as I said before on this list (probably many a time), I think
that in reality, the Strakers and Michaels of this world would be difficult
to live with. In the end we all want to be the most important factor in our
partner's life, and even if one would understand and admire a man's fight
for and dedication to a higher cause (like protecting the world from aliens
or from terrorists), one wouldn't exactly like it. Especially if one didn't
even know one's partner was in that kind of fight and got told lies all the
time! Sooner or later one would know what said partner told one, is a lie.
And he (she) wouldn't be able to (allowed to) explain... IF we were to
watch the episodes involving Mary Straker and try to look at it
differently, with the idea in mind we do NOT know about the existence of
SHADO, would we still like Ed Straker? I doubt it!

>I prefer Peta, myself, she's babeliscious.

Would you still like her if she was your girlfriend and you didn't know she
was with Section One? She would be away a lot, come home with bruises all
over the place. 'Sorry, dear, I fell, again'.... And how do the MoonBase
girls explain to their eventual partners they are away for months on end?
Do they tell them they are working on an oil rig? Away on business trips?
Have joined a South Pole expedition?
I wonder what cover the MoonBase operatives are given. I assume there must
be a variety of covers. 'Doing research for the government in a closed
facility' might work, or their being in the army or SAS or some such and
away on missions. But that would only work for scientific/medical personnel
or for personnel who had been taken from the army or similar ranks.
What covers are spies given?

Relationships are difficult as it is. People who have jobs that aren't
nine-to-five will change partners more often. In Belgium, for instance,
statistics prove that marriages where one partner is in the police force or
the gendarmerie (our state police) have higher divorce rates. And the
partners of those policemen and women know what their partner does for a
living, even if said partner often can't (isn't allowed) to discuss his (or
her) job in detail. It must be a 1000 times worse for people who are with
SHADO or spy organisations...

CU

Lieve


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* Lieve Peten, Vlaanderen, Belgium : Mailto:[hidden email]
* Internet Sites link page: http://pinball.iwarp.com/mysites.html
* The Pinball Site * Loch Ness + UFOs in Belgium * Vangelis *
* Nikita * UFO TV-series * Animated Gifs * Andrea Bocelli *

>> Didn't they give it in someone's coffee in one episode, and inject them
>> with it in another? That's a bit incongruous really, if this is so. Unless
>> they had two different amnesia drug preparations?

This makes sense folks - the delivery options for the drug should be varied
to deal with each situation as it comes up. BTW - there have been some
EXCELLENT discussions going on this site - love it!

Pam

Pam wrote:




> >> Didn't they give it in someone's coffee in one episode, and inject them
> >> with it in another? That's a bit incongruous really, if this is so. Unless
> >> they had two different amnesia drug preparations?
>
>This makes sense folks - the delivery options for the drug should be varied

I ALWAYS make sense, except when I don't! (Shut up, James :-) :-) :-)

>to deal with each situation as it comes up. BTW - there have been some
>EXCELLENT discussions going on this site - love it!

Maybe you should check out the Fab-Ufo archives - that's assuming they are
still available? There have been excellent discussions in the past. One
starts to see UFO from an entirely different angle after a while. I did to
some respect, since until I signed onto Fab-Ufo (October 1996 or
thereabouts) I didn't encounter many people who watched the programme.
Those that ever had, had only faint memories of it ("oh yes, that programme
where the women wore purple wigs")
Reading the conversations on Fab-Ufo (and now Shado) also sometimes clears
up mysteries. Like my wondering if there was something wrong with my memory
when watching the infamous German ending to A Question Of Priorities.
And of course, if it hadn't been for this group, I wouldn't have known
where to buy the full set of UFO episodes....

CU

Lieve



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* Lieve Peten, Vlaanderen, Belgium : Mailto:[hidden email]
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* The Pinball Site * Loch Ness + UFOs in Belgium * Vangelis *
* Nikita * UFO TV-series * Animated Gifs * Andrea Bocelli *

Again, Lieve, you've hit the nail right on the head! Have you been peeking
into my mind with some sort of snoop drug? ha ha

But seriously folks - I agree with Lieve that I find Spock, Straker and
characters like them (i.e. Mike Logan on the old Law and Order episodes) to
be more appealing to me than the Kirks and Alecs. Why - As Lieve stated:
"Guys like Spock, Straker, Michael. They all appear unemotional
and to be all about business, their cause is always something better,
something higher. In real life, so many people seem to have as their only
cause
to earn (lots of) money, right? The fun about guys like Straker and Michael
and Spock is to try and find their vulnerable spot. To see their faces when
they think nobody is looking
and see that one flash of emotion most people don't see is there."

I also happen to agree with Lieve on this point: "I hate open, public
displays of emotion, I think that should be kept private. Stiff upper lip
and all that. In reality that is difficult to do,
so characters that are written that way are very attractive. Kudos for the
actors for doing it so well!" This point again is why perhaps I feel some
things should be kept private!

Lieve's comments: "I think that in reality, the Strakers and Michaels of
this world would be difficult to live with. In the end we all want to be the
most important factor in our
partner's life, and even if one would understand and admire a man's fight
for and dedication to a higher cause (like protecting the world from aliens
or from terrorists), one wouldn't exactly like it. Especially if one didn't
even know one's partner was in that kind of fight and got told lies all the
time! Sooner or later one would know what said partner told one, is a lie.
And he (she) wouldn't be able to (allowed to) explain... IF we were to
watch the episodes involving Mary Straker and try to look at it
differently, with the idea in mind we do NOT know about the existence of
SHADO, would we still like Ed Straker? I doubt it!" Totally agree - and on
the subject of Trek - think how many women Kirk went through - not just in
TOS, but the movies too.

Deep covers for specialist scientists or spies, or anti-terrorist types is
essential - as a result, most of them probably never have marriages or
families because it becomes well night impossible to have both. Lieve also
writes: "Relationships are difficult as it is. People who have jobs that
aren't nine-to-five will change partners more often. In Belgium, for
instance, statistics prove that marriages where one partner is in the police
force or the gendarmerie (our state police) have higher divorce rates. And
the partners of those policemen and women know what their partner does for a

living, even if said partner often can't (isn't allowed) to discuss his (or
her) job in detail. It must be a 1000 times worse for people who are with
SHADO or spy organisations..." This is SOOOO true, even here in Canada. I
know alot of police officers, RCMP people and firefighters whose marriages
hit the skids, and most of them are not involved in anything secret - just
tough. As one firefighter put it to me - you can't go home and expect your
wife to understand what it's like to haul a burned body out of a house -
that sweetish smell of burned flesh - the anguish you feel when you find
dead kids on the scene. They can use their imaginations, but they can never
come close to the truth."

Pam

Hi All,

Pam wrote:
>Again, Lieve, you've hit the nail right on the head! Have you been peeking
>into my mind with some sort of snoop drug? ha ha

Not really. Apart from my powers to hypnotise people (how else do you think
I got appointed as head of MarsBase huh? :-) I'm also telepathic!!! :-) :-)

> I
>know alot of police officers, RCMP people and firefighters whose marriages
>hit the skids, and most of them are not involved in anything secret - just
>tough. As one firefighter put it to me - you can't go home and expect your
>wife to understand what it's like to haul a burned body out of a house -
>that sweetish smell of burned flesh - the anguish you feel when you find
>dead kids on the scene. They can use their imaginations, but they can never
>come close to the truth."

Quite so! The only people who really and truly understand are the people
who have had the same experiences. I guess this is true for just about
anything. Does someone who still has both her or his parents, understand
what it is like to lose one's father or mother? Same for losing one's kid,
partner, sister... But sooner or later we all live through the experience
of losing someone who is close. While very few of us go through the kind of
horror some policemen or firefighters have to go through.
I wonder how Straker feels when he has to decide over life and death. It
happens often enough.... To save a group of people, he has to risk the life
of one of his pilots or one of the other SHADO operators. So of course he
keeps aloof and tries not to get too close to anyone, since he knows that
one day he may have to risk that person's life - he knows that getting too
close to anyone (anyone BUT his favourite MarsBase Commander, that is :-)
will perhaps impair his judgement one day... Straker is the way he is
because he has no choice. If he lets himself go, he'll not be able to do
his stuff any more....
Better read my UFO story 'Straker meets his match', Pam (if you haven't
yet), I have quite a bit in there on how I think Straker feels.
I used to know this children's doctor. He cared about every single one of
the kids, and when he lost one of his patients, it killed him a little bit
each time. He died quite young. Heart... Only a very strong character
would to be able to do what Straker does, or someone who is totally
unfeeling. And we know Straker doesn't fall in the latter category... Me
thinks he tries to shut down his emotions or disregard them. Maybe what
happened to him in Timelash was a direct effect of that drug, but also a
result of what he had to be like for years...

CU!

Lieve



Col. Lieve Peten, Commander MarsBase - Mailto:[hidden email]

"That's what life is all about, I guess - The things we never say."
Cmdr. Ed Straker, UFO Series, Subsmash episode.

SHADO/UFO pages : http://shado.simplenet.com/aspects
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