The military rank system

In a message dated 6/23/2003 2:05:58 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
[hidden email] writes:
Yuchtar wrote:
> >Why does Lake's rank have to be "honorary?" Cuz she's a lowly woman?
> >HMPH. Paul was a civilian too. They both got their rank after their
> >SHADO training. And, since Lake took over Freeman's role, I'd say she
> >outranks Foster. <arms folded, sticking my tongue out at the sexist Mr.
> >Lazenby>
>

I've always had the impression Lake outranked Foster. There were a couple of
episodes that might have questioned that ("Reflections in the Water" for
one). But, for the most part, when they were in scenes together, Lake seemed to
be in charge. And she did seem to be second in command to Straker.

I would doubt her rank was honorary considering she seemed to be pretty much
in control of Skydiver in (can't remember the name of the ep); the one where
she kept telling the Captain to go deeper.

Speaking of Lake, I've always wondered about her and Straker in "Timelash".
I've never been able to make up my mind if she was flirting with him. Does
anyone know if that was what the script intended?

I'd appreciate anyone's opinion on this. "Timelash" is my second favorite
episode, and I enjoy thinking Straker might have had some romance in his life.
But I've never been able to decide if this was what was intended, or just
wishful thinking on my part. I thought I saw some hints in "Mindbender" as well.
The coffee thing?



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Thanks for the correction Yuchtar. I was just trying to simplify it.
Actual if I was being totally accuarate I'd have to say that there are no
longer the ranks of Private, Private First Class, Corporal, Lance Corporal, etc.
in the U. S. Military. They were replaced in the early 70's with the rank of
Specialist Fourth Class, Specialist Third Class, Specialist Second Class, and
Specialist First Class. I just used the ranks that most people are more
familar with.
I agree, why does it have to be that Col. Lake is a honorary Colonel?
I think she got her rank the same way everyone else in SHADO did, the old
fashion way, they earned it. If you want to make a case for the other side you
could say that Foster is the honorary colonel. He got there very fast, make
he got it on a trip to the Kentucy Derby, lots of honorary colonels there<g>.

James K.


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NasaMonkey wrote:
> I would doubt her rank was honorary considering she seemed to be
pretty much in control of Skydiver in (can't remember the name of the
ep); the one where she kept telling the Captain to go deeper.

It was the episode "Destruction".
In the same episode, Col. Lake ordered Cpt. Waterman(?) to dive the
Skydiver exceeding the safety depth 600 and reaching 900.
(BTW, the depth 600 means 600 feet depth or 600 meters depth???
Please let me, Japanese, know!)

NasaMonkey wrote:
> Speaking of Lake, I've always wondered about her and Straker in
"Timelash".
> I've never been able to make up my mind if she was flirting with
him.

Yes, indeed.
Anyway, in the first place, Freeman dropped a hint to Lake in the
first episode "Identified", Lake did it to Straker in "Timelash",
Straker did to Lt. Ellis in "Close Up", and Lt. Ellis to Mark Bradley
in "Computer Affair"...
Just like a merry-go-round???


Kaoru

----- Original Message -----
From: <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 9:55 PM
Subject: [SHADO] The military rank system


> I would doubt her rank was honorary considering she seemed to be pretty
much
> in control of Skydiver in (can't remember the name of the ep); the one
where
> she kept telling the Captain to go deeper.
>

Maybe they should have given her a lower rank; When the sub experts (the
crew) tells you you are far exceeding the max depth, relaying damage
reports, and the forward plates are buckling, you shouldn't be ordering
them deeper....

Dave H.

>In the same episode, Col. Lake ordered Cpt. Waterman(?) to dive the
Skydiver exceeding the safety depth 600 and reaching 900.
(BTW, the depth 600 means 600 feet depth or 600 meters depth???
Please let me, Japanese, know!)

600 fathoms, wasn't it?

And I got the impression from that scene that Lake's rank was definately
honorary, from the disgruntled way the SkyDiver crew were looking at her as
she gave out orders. Definately unchuffed at having someone non-military
take charge, I think.

Again remember though, I made a comparison earlier to the security services
like MI5, which also gives honorary titles to their civilian staff, as they
draw from all walks of life.

As for Lake flirting with Straker, wasn't she flirting with EVERYONE? [Paul
Foster, Craig Collins etc. etc.] I'm a bit biased however as I have never
liked the character, although I do still like the later episodes. Lake has
gone on a very long holiday in my fan fiction and only appears when
absolutely necessary ;-)

Jess

> >In the same episode, Col. Lake ordered Cpt. Waterman(?) to dive the
>Skydiver exceeding the safety depth 600 and reaching 900.
>(BTW, the depth 600 means 600 feet depth or 600 meters depth???
>Please let me, Japanese, know!)
>
>600 fathoms, wasn't it?

Yes, it was 600 fathoms, which is a depth of 3600 feet = 1097 meters.

Marc

CONTENTS DELETED

[hidden email] wrote:

> you're overlooking something. She was putting herself in danger too,
> and no doubt knew it. Straker knew what he was doing when he made her
> his second.
>

To be honest - I don't believe the fact she was putting herself
in danger compensates for putting the rest of the crew in danger
in any way.

600 Fathoms!
3600 feet!

I think it was more on the order of 600 feet. The maximum depth of
dive listed for most submarines is listed as being 450 meters or 1476.5 feet.
However this being information given out by the military it might be a bit short
of the true maximum depth the sub could reach. But 3600 feet being more than
twice this is very optimistic.

James K.


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> I think it was more on the order of 600 feet.

Whether teh depth of 600 fathoms is feasible for a submarine or not, that is
what was stated in the episode.

Jess

>> I think it was more on the order of 600 feet.

In 1934 William Beebe and OTIS Barton managed to descend to 3028 feet in a
bathysphere. In 1958 a bathyscape descended to 10, 392 feet off the coast
of Italy. Going down 3600 feet in a 'modern' nuclear sub therefore doesn't
seem such a problem. According to my book, the range of submersibles today
is anywhere between 1000 to 10, 000 feet. Modern diving suits alone can be
used down to 360 feet.

Jess

"J Ramage" wrote:
> > I think it was more on the order of 600 feet.
>
> Whether teh depth of 600 fathoms is feasible for a submarine or not,
> that is what was stated in the episode.
>

It's well feasible for SHADO hardware, like all manner of things
that aren't feasible in real life.

--- In [hidden email], James Gibbon <james.gibbon@v...> wrote:
> "J Ramage" wrote:
> > > I think it was more on the order of 600 feet.
> >
> > Whether teh depth of 600 fathoms is feasible for a submarine or
not,
> > that is what was stated in the episode.
> >
>
> It's well feasible for SHADO hardware, like all manner of things
> that aren't feasible in real life.

The maximum depth must had been 600 decimeters (60 meters), since in
that episode, as I recall, you could clearly see a shot of SkyDiver
at those depths with "natural light" (thus, the sun light was
reaching those depths). If it had been at least 600 feet, SkyDiver
would had been diving in darkness, and that is not what we saw ;-).

David Levine

----- Original Message -----
From: <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 24, 2003 12:24 PM
Subject: Re: [SHADO] The military rank system


>
> Unless you have the go-ahead from the top cat in the Nehru who has made
> decisions similar to that even when it put personnel in danger.
RHIP.Besides,
> you're overlooking something. She was putting herself in danger too, and
no doubt
> knew it. Straker knew what he was doing when he made her his second.
>
> Amelia
>
> Amelia
>

-------------------------------------------------

If they were in dire pursuit of a UFO, or in battle, I might agree, but
she was feeling around in the blind for the bottom of the ocean, unknowing
even of what she might be looking for - hardly something worth risking the
crew and this expensive submarine and airplane for....

Dave H.

Jess,
I am aware of the feats of both the Bathysphere and the Bathyscape.
But neither were conventional submarines. The Bathysphere was a specially
constructed diving bell, and the Bathyscape while a submarine as made with
materials so much thicker and heavier than a normal sub it could only carry two men
if I remember correctly. The great depths reached by current deepsea
submersibles is only because they do not carry people to those depths and can be built
to take the pressure with out risking life which makes them very small on the
inside. The British Minstry of Defense (MOD) says that the Crush Depth of
steel is 1800 feet. To go below this in the new subs they have to use very
expensive alloys like titainium. Checking sites for listing of modern Nuclear subs
I found that most list maximum depth as about 2500 feet and crush depth as
3000. Crush depth is the where the sub folds in on you like a the way you smash
an aluminum can for recycling.

James K.


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James K. wrote:
>Jess,
I am aware of the feats...etc.

James,

I am perfectly able to admit that I am wrong on these things as I have very
little interest in machines, so long as they work and leave me alone. All I
was trying to do in my last reply was to explain away another inconsistency
in the show, using the references I have available. I don't know much about
submarines and was just trying to participate in the discussion. I was
unaware that this was a bad thing.

Jess

[hidden email] wrote:
That's not the point - _if_ it was an unwarranted risk, then it
matters not a jot whether she was endangering her own life. She
was still putting billions of dollars worth of hardware and other
peoples' lives in unnecessary danger.

[hidden email] wrote:
> Jess,
> I am aware of the feats of both the Bathysphere and the Bathyscape.
> But neither were conventional submarines.

Neither is Skydiver, it's a submarine from 'the future'. I see
no reason to doubt that in the UFO Universe, SkyDiver is capable
of diving to 600 fathoms, if that's what it says in the script.

Jess,
taking part is not a bad thing. Did I say it was? If I did please
forgive me for being totally rude. I was just trying to say that the two
examples were not your average subs. As the OTHER James pointed out neither is
Skydiver. But I would still have to stand by my opinion based on what real subs
are capable of. The data I gave is based on a 1992 built Russian Delta IV
class nuclear sub. I would have used something new if I could have found it but
it not the sort of classified info you put on the internet<g>.

James K.


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This is one of those "Damed if you do, Damed if you don't" type situations. Straker would have backed her play since she was on the spot with the most current info, but I can see Henderson trying to hang her out to dry for "Exceeding her orders". He just strikes me as one of those "Chair Warmers", despite his many medals on his Dress Blues.
Personally, I would have done it myself, knowing what they knew then. You don't engauge and then run off, you stay and finish the job. Obviously you don't stick around if it really looks like Custer and the Seventh Cav, but short of that, your job is to stand and fight.

James Gibbon <[hidden email]> wrote:
[hidden email] wrote:
That's not the point - _if_ it was an unwarranted risk, then it
matters not a jot whether she was endangering her own life. She
was still putting billions of dollars worth of hardware and other
peoples' lives in unnecessary danger.





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