UFO Theme

> Whilst a stereo mix will be interesting, it will be clearly contrived

>[however well intentioned]and in my opinion should be clearly labelled

>as the the UFO [2002 stereo remix]if included.

Have you heard the Fanderson Space:1999 soundtrack CD's? These
are stereo remixes of the original studio master tapes, and
were well-received by fans. I once suggested that they should
have just taken the simpler/cheaper route and just released
the original mono mixes, and people thought I was crazy!  
However, there are some passages on the Space:1999 CD which
simply do not sound correct to me, which is frustrating,
because of course the mono versions would have sounded
correct.  

I'm sure we'll have the same problems with the UFO soundtrack
CD... although hopefully not!

Marc

I have not heard the space 1999 CD's. I'm sure the original mix of
those would also have been mono as well, as stereo TV audio is only a
fairly recent phenomenon, perhaps has only been with us in the last
10 years or so.

For some reason, a reason I can't fathom a vocal section of the record
buying public automatically assume that the stereo mix is always the
definative version. I would say as far as Tv is concerned very little
before 1980 would have been made with the intention of being heard in
anything but mono. A lot, and mean a lot of effort would have been put
into getting the mono mix right.

Then when they come to compile these reissues someone assumes on our
behalf that we want to hear some cak handed stereo mixes created 30
years later, and not Barry Gray's authoritive versions. The stereo
version are more than likely CREATED by someone who was not at the
recording process and has no idea of what the original intention were.

There will be a lot of subtleties in those mono mixes which we may not
hear, if they are not included

Yes! include some stereo remixes but make them bonus tracks or put
them on seperate disc.

Marty.........



--- In SHADO@y..., "Marc Martin" <marc@u...> wrote:
> > Whilst a stereo mix will be interesting, it will be clearly
contrived
>
> >[however well intentioned]and in my opinion should be clearly
labelled

- I once suggested that they should
> have just taken the simpler/cheaper route and just released
> the original mono mixes, and people thought I was crazy!
> However, there are some passages on the Space:1999 CD which
> simply do not sound correct to me, which is frustrating,
> because of course the mono versions would have sounded
> correct.


Well, maybe they should of listened to you because you a right. I 'm
sure parts of those 1999 CD don't have the impact the should have.

Marty.........

>I have not heard the space 1999 CD's. I'm sure the original mix of
>those would also have been mono as well

For a lot of the music for both Space:1999 and UFO, there are
two basic existing sources -- one is the multi-track session
tapes, and the other is Barry Gray's own personal copies of
the final mono mix. For most of the Space:1999 soundtrack
CDs, the mono mixes were only used as a last resort -- whenever
they could make a stereo version out of the master tapes, they
did so.

In the case of Space:1999, there actually were stereo mixes for
some tracks made for an RCA soundtrack album, but even in these
cases, Fanderson made brand new mixes. So basically most of
the original mixes remain unheard (even though they still
do exist)

I suspect that this will basically be repeated for the UFO
soundtrack.

Note that on eBay, you can often find people selling a UFO
soundtrack CD-R. This is actually taken from Barry Gray's
personal tapes, so they are actually his original mono
mixes. So you may in fact prefer this to the Fanderson
release.

Marc

The same process more or less exists in the music industry were the
studio session tapes [I prefer this phrase to multi track you use as
multi-track was not widley used prior to 69/70 despite your asseration
there is a difference between multi-track and 4 and 8 track tape. It
is entirely likely that Space 1999 was recorded on multi-track tape,
but UFO I have doubts]

Once the artist was satisfied the session tapes are how he wants them
sounding. They are transfered on a 1/4" production master. This
production master is then given to the cutting engineer. Vinyl has
limited sonic range so one of the cutting engineers jobs was to
compress the sound so the sonic range of the music was suitable for LP
record. This is why you often get the comment that vinyl has a warmer
sound. If the artist had trust in the engineer it would be possible he
would allow the engineer to carry out the mono reduction. I'm sure the
same process would apply to Tv work, the only difference being that
the sound maybe compressed a little more.

The egotistical bit now, I worked on a re-issue programme of a MAJOR
british artist from the 60's and 70's over 20 albums in total. Prior
to to 1970 the artist approved mix was mono and what became apparent
was that the artist was fully involved in the mono mix and spent
considerable time on this, any stereo mix created during this period
was entirely created without the artists knowledge. Often simulated
stereo mixes were manufactured by boosting the reverb in one channel
and bass in the other to give the illusion of a stereo image. The
artist HATED this and any other stereo version. It like me or you
adding more paint to say van Gough.

This all that these people are doing, the only difference is they are
doing it 30 years later. they are in my opinion, are being
disrespectful of Barry Grays work. Anyway rant over, it would be nice
to think they will carefully consider what they are doing with UFO
soundtrack from what you say they sound real novices in this and just
ebd doing what the feel.

Marty........






--- In SHADO@y..., "Marc Martin" <marc@u...> wrote:

>Often simulated stereo mixes were manufactured by boosting the
>reverb in one channel and bass in the other to give the illusion
>of a stereo image. This all that these people are doing, the only
>difference is they are doing it 30 years later.

The upcoming UFO soundtrack will *not* be in simulated stereo.
The UFO session tapes do have multiple audio tracks -- if you
listen to the UFO theme on the Sci-Fi Channel you can plainly
hear that some instruments are fully in the left channel,
and other instruments are fully in the right channel. If
this was not commonly done at the time, so be it, but one
has to remember that Barry Gray seemed to use all the
latest gadgets first (electronic music, synths, etc.).

The UFO session tapes were transferred to Hi8 Multitrack tapes
a year ago, and Fanderson (Tim Mallet and Andrew Frampton,
I belive) has been working on them for a year trying to get
them just right. For the Space:1999 releases, I think they
were mostly successful -- for example, you could hit the mono
button on your receiver and it sounded pretty close to the
original mix. Close but not exactly. And I do know fans
who are purists to the point where they hated what Fanderson
had done, but I think they were pretty much the silent
minority.

Marc

>The UFO session tapes do have multiple audio tracks -- if you
>listen to the UFO theme on the Sci-Fi Channel

Ooops, I meant to say the "Sci-Fi Channel CD" (from 1998).  
Here's a cover photo of it from Angelo Finamore's website:

http://www.ufotv.it/cd.misc/cduninvited.JPG

Marc

>if you
>listen to the UFO theme on the Sci-Fi Channel CD you can plainly
>hear that some instruments are fully in the left channel,
>and other instruments are fully in the right channel.

Here's what I'm talking about:

http://ufoseries.com/stereo.mp3

Marc

--- In SHADO@y..., "Marc Martin" <marc@u...> wrote:

Sorry, that was a bad bit of english on my part :-) [I was typing in
quite a rush] the point I was TRYING to make was: was mixing to stereo
is is JUST as bad a creating simulated stereo when those practices
existed. It's VANDALISM [how ever well imtentioned].

RIGHT ! we are getting to it now:-) The original sessions tapes were
transferred to multi-track at a later date ! which confirms my doubts
that multi-track was used in the first place, this is entirely likley.
I would hope that safties have been created and they have been backed
up on xabyte.

I don't subcribe to this 'hitting' the mono button, believe me it is
not a simple as that. I have worked closely with someone I consider
the best remaster engineer in the business [he has worked with the
best] he would cringe at this. If the mono masters exist USE them!!
There will be a lot of subtitles that will be very hard to if not
impossible to recreate

The mono mixes are the versions that Barry Gray WANTED US TO HEAR. If
they are hell bent producing 2002 stereo remixes, fine and dandy,
label them as such and include them as bonus's or better still have
them on a seperate disc.



Marty.......
>
> Marc

--- In SHADO@y..., Marc Martin <marc@u...> wrote:
Marc - I'm not sure of the point your are trying to make here? I have
never doubted that stereo tapes exist. The studio sessions have been
produced in this form from as far back as the early 60's. The mono
masters would have possibly been created from that IF it was
considered a finished version. We have no proof that someone has not
meddled with that to in thier on view make it presentable for
release??? It is sloppy to release. I doubt this was ever meant for
public consumption, to my mind this should be labelled as demo version
and be a bonus track if included.

Marty..........

I have to agree - For example, I am delighted with the Fanderson Space:1999
discs, but to be honest, the stereo mixes of the Year 1 and 2 title themes
sound nowhere near as good as the original mono tv versions. The stereo
mixes lack that certain "something", especially in the case of the year 2
theme... The track sinply doesn't have the "ba*ls" that the original mono
mix has in spades(!) The mono "Black Sun" suite sounds way better than the
stereo mixes on the year one set. The stereo year one title theme mix is
also wrong, with an extra piano part which is disconcerting.

Stereo is appealing, but I'd be happy with the original mono tapes in
existence.

Best regards,

Dan.


----- Original Message -----
From: "hopkirkmarty" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 10:18 AM
Subject: [SHADO] Re: UFO Theme
>

If it the general consensus that the [silient] majority would prefer
to hear the music as Barry Gray intended - ie the mono versions. I
would suggest now is the time to let them know - it will be to late
after the CD's have been produced. From foregoing discusions it seems
that Fanderson seem a little of a closed shop as regards external
ideas and don't seem to always take on suggestions from thier
membership.

Fanderson have a HUGE responsibility here, to release a CD that
closely resembles Barry Grays original intentions. From Marc
previous postings it appears the mono masters apparently exists,
therefore I don't see the problem.

Because the music it was alays intended to heard in mono, that how it
would it would have been recorded. To remix tio stereo you run a
almost certain risk of washing out the sound.

Marty........






--- In SHADO@y..., "Dan Box" <mr-natural@b...> wrote:
> I have to agree - For example, I am delighted with the Fanderson
Space:1999
> discs, but to be honest, the stereo mixes of the Year 1 and 2 title
themes
> sound nowhere near as good as the original mono tv versions. The
stereo
> mixes lack that certain "something", especially in the case of the
year 2
> theme... The track sinply doesn't have the "ba*ls" that the original
mono
> mix has in spades(!) The mono "Black Sun" suite sounds way better
than the
> stereo mixes on the year one set. The stereo year one title theme
mix is
> also wrong, with an extra piano part which is disconcerting.
>
> Stereo is appealing, but I'd be happy with the original mono tapes
in If
> > they are hell bent producing 2002 stereo remixes, fine and dandy,
> > label them as such and include them as bonus's or better still
have http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >

>I would suggest now is the time to let them know - it will be to late
>after the CD's have been produced.

It's probably too late as it is -- seems like such a petition should
have occurred with the release of the Space:1999 Year One CD. Or
there should have been some backlash after it was released. But
there wasn't. And now that they've been working on the UFO CD
for over a year, do you seriously think they're going to start
all over? After all, just a couple of months ago they were
predicting a November release, so I'd say that they must be
95% done with it. I think at this point I'd rather hear what
they've come up with, and if it's unsatisfactory, then push
for new CD's with the original mono mixes. (after all, some
of this CD *will* be in mono, because there are no session
tapes available for some of UFO's music)

Marc

>Fanderson have a HUGE responsibility here, to release a CD that
>closely resembles Barry Grays original intentions. From Marc
>previous postings it appears the mono masters apparently exists,
>therefore I don't see the problem.

Actually, the mono "masters" don't exist. What exists are tapes
that Barry Gray recorded for himself that he kept in his home,
using a standard home reel-to-reel tape recorded at the fast
speed. Although the frequency response is supposed to be fine
on these tapes, I believe that there are issues with tape
deterioration/sticking which in turn causes dropouts and would
make some of the tracks unusable. Although I'm not sure how
big of an issue this is, because reportedly there are about
6 hours of raw music on these tapes, with some tracks showing
up several times on multiple tapes.

Marc

>The stereo year one title theme mix is
>also wrong, with an extra piano part which is disconcerting.

Yes, but at the time of this CD's release, the most common comment was
that the sound quality was so good that you could hear things that
you could never heard before. What I think they don't realize is
that this piano was probably INTENTIONALLY excluded from the
original mix.

Marc

Firstly, it never to late as long as that hav'nt sent the DAT's to the
production house. There would be very little extra work, if any. The
mono masters only have to be cleaned up and sent to into production,
that is fairly painless job particulary as there is little scopeto
meddle.

I worked on a album were a [intensive] search of the tape library
revealed nothing but the stereo tapes. So on that basis, we had no
option but to proceed using the rather clanky stereo mix. Less than
three weeks from the advertised release date, the tape Liberian
chanced upon the mono tapes, they had been added to the end of a tape
of another artist - but not catalogued, presumably in a effort to save
space. These were run across to the studio and cleaned up and put into
production and the advertised release date was hit. With all due
respect to Barry Gray this was a far higher profile release than the
UFO tapes and the release date was a must achieve target, from what I
understand the release date of UFO soundtrack is being left open - so
what's the problem? I'm sure most would be willing to wait an
additional week if it meant getting it right.


I think it will be to late once the CD's have been put into
production, not the other way around because, the major cost will be
in duping the CD's and printing the artwork. I doubt they will go for
a second vol once that has bee committed Or a least, won't until the
first batch has sold and looking at the Fanderson site they don't see
to have any track record of revisting materail. I'm telling you this
is your chance now.

If these guys have been remixing for a year I hate to think what they
will come up with.

Marty...........





--- In SHADO@y..., Marc Martin <marc@u...> wrote:
> >I would suggest now is the time to let them know - it will be to
late

--- In SHADO@y..., Marc Martin <marc@u...> wrote:
> >The stereo year one title theme mix is
> >also wrong, with an extra piano part which is disconcerting.
>
> Yes, but at the time of this CD's release, the most common comment
was
> that the sound quality was so good that you could hear things that
> you could never heard before. What I think they don't realize is
> that this piano was probably INTENTIONALLY excluded from the
> original mix.
>
> Marc


PRECISELY !!!

My sentiments exactly, Marc :-)
The problem with a stereo remix is that personal preferences of the person
doing the remixing can come through, instead of sticking religiously to the
original sound of the track.

Dan.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marc Martin" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 4:33 PM
Subject: Re: [SHADO] Re: UFO Theme

Marty:

I'm not sure you get it -- the people working on this have full time jobs
using equipment as available. They are not spending day and night doing this.

Let's wait until the CDs release -- you don't like 'em, you no buy 'em. Get
it?

Anthony
----- Original Message -----
From: "hopkirkmarty" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2002 11:51 AM
Subject: [SHADO] Re: UFO Theme Petition


<snip>
>
> If these guys have been remixing for a year I hate to think what they
> will come up with.
>
> Marty...........

I'm suffering from lack of knowlege of the what tape exists here.
Generally studio tape is 1/2" and production tape is a 1/4". So-called
"home" open reel players are also 1/4". Depending on the physical size
of the reel it should be possible to play production tape on a
domestic open reel player, especially if it something like a TEAC. I
have played production tape here in my home my very old Sony reel
player. Obviously, I have no idea why Barry Gray took open reel dubs.
It would unusual for home listening, as normally a acetate copy would
be run off for that - but if he had a home studio that might be the
reason. At some stage the 1/2" studio tape would have to been
transferred to 1/4" so it could have been dubbed onto the film mags.
Although thoertically, I suppose could have been dubbed direct from
the 1/2" but I doubt it.

This is were research is needed to try and accertain what was the
tapes original purpose. Could these simply be the master and once
transferred to to the mags he held onto them??

I don't see a problem with high speed dubbing it was a pretty standard
practice, such was record company indifference back then that the
productions tapes were often transferred to the LP stampers like this.
Also most of the domestic reproduction equipment back then would'nt be
able to reveal this limitation in the source material like it can now
so that fact it was dubbed at high speed should'nt be a problem.
Bearing in mind it was for Tv use and because the audio on tv back
them was quite limited it would'nt be a problem - I'm assuming UFO
despite being filmed on 35mm was never intended for theatrical
release? Even then I doubt it because I worked on a soundtrack for a
movie that was released two years after UFO and that was a compressed
mono.

So what if the tape is in indifferent condition, with todays software
unless the tape is completely shagged it should be possible to restore
it to a reasonable standard. I doubt once remastered most people ears
would pick up the remaining flaws. You mention there are multiple
versions? With todays technology, once loaded onto hard disc it would
be easy to replace the defective sections by dropping in the parts
from other versions or sampling other sections. But it it would have
to be quite bad to consider doing that.

Marty..........







--- In SHADO@y..., Marc Martin <marc@u...> wrote: