soundtrack discussion

(Warning: only for the members who are interested in the UFO-
Fanderson-CD-mono-vs.-stereo discussion. If you're not please
deleted it :-)

So let's get down to the infighting [i] ;-)

I fully understand that a few hard-core fans are only satisfied with
the original mono mixes (whatever original in this case means) but
I'm glad to listen to the music of UFO in stereo for the first
time. And I don't think Fanderson did a bad job because for me it
sounds (in most cases) just like in the series. From my experiences I
know that there is always a difference between mono and stereo even
it's from the same source. I think of THE FINAL COUNTDOWN e.g.;
this movie was made with a stereo score (and in most cinemas it was
played in stereo) but on the telly they always presented the mono
version for 20 years. Now, listening on the DVD in stereo it sounded
a little bit... different. But it's the same score, anyway.

But let's see if I have understood it right (and please correct
me if I am wrong): from the 4 track studio masters one can do a
stereo or a mono downmix. Gray decided to do a mono downmix because
his aim was not to release a soundtrack LP, he made a soundtrack for
a TV series in 1969/70. At this time no TV series were made in stereo
so why should he mix it down into stereo, right? It was never planned
to release a UFO LP so why should Barry bother to do a stereo mix,
anyway?

Barry was proud of his compositions for DOPPELGÄNGER and he played
it in concerts (now that's a real stereo effect ;-) and I think he
mixed it down into stereo also. Therefore I can't imagine that
Barry would have released a UFO LP (or later CD) in mono if he had
the opportunity to release it in stereo.

But sadly Barry is no longer with us. We don't know if he wanted
that UFO would be released in stereo. Neither did we know if he
wanted it to be released in mono...

Anthony D. wrote:
-----> but I think hardcore fans KNOW that this stuff was never made
in stereo -- I think hardcore fans wouldl accept mono. <-----

Right, but on the other hand a real hard-core fan wouldn't want
to have the music separated from the scenes where it belongs to ;-)
And if then of course only the snippets which appear in the scenes
and not full versions of them.

-----> Maybe I need to listen to it in my car (stereo)?? I was
listening to it mainly on my PC which has OK sound quality <-----

Maybe one should listen to both versions (mono and stereo) with
headphones to compare these versions properly. I don't think that
listening in a car or on a PC is a good choice by way of comparison,
Anthony, because of the background noises and the quality of the
speakers :-) I've just checked the difference between my PC (with
two not-to-bad stereo speakers) and my Hifi-equipment (with really
good ones) and believe me: there *is* a difference in sound :-)

Marc wrote:
-----> As I recall, the problem I had with the Space:1999 Year One
main theme stereo mix is that they put in instruments which were
never audible in the original <-----

That's right! There are (few) tracks with added instruments on
the UFO CDs also, e.g. with the Skydiver theme on Disc 2.

-----> Also, I think I would have tried to make it a 3 disc release
instead of 2. <-----

I quite agree, Marc. And I can only hope Fanderson *will* produce a
third disc (or even a fourth) although some fans are a little bit
dissatisfied with the stereo decision ;-)

the_connoisseuruk wrote:
-----> Fanderson have done a superb job on this CD and I'm sure the
vast majority of purchasers will agree. <-----

I agree. It's great to listen to a lot of known and unknown (and
unknown means: composed for the series especially) UFO music in
mostly stereo for the first time! Thanks, Fanderson! :-))

The Lunadude wrote:
-----> I think the analogy between the mono - stereo and the
colourisation of black and films is a good one. The colourisation was
a abomination. <-----

What's the problem with colourised movies? Although I prefer the
movies and series in its original black and white format (like the
Miss Marple movies with Margaret Rutherford or THE AVENGERS season 4
which was in b/w, too) because they've got a certain mood,
I've got no problems with a colourised one. First, every TV set
is able to remove the colour so you can always watch it in b/w and
second, sometimes it is interesting to see what would it look like if
they made it in colour. And if it doesn't satisfy me ---> First
:-) So, I don't think it could be called an abomination...

Thinking of it, when I saw UFO for the first time I saw it in black
and white, so if I would be a *real* hard-core fan, shouldn't I
be dissatisfied with the colour episodes on the DVDs... ;-)

Marc asked:
-----> I'm curious -- are the folks who wanted the 5.1 surround sound
for their UFO DVDs the same people who wanted a stereo music CD? And
are the people who wanted their DVDs to retain the original mono
episode soundtrack the same people who would prefer a soundtrack CD
to be in the original mono music? <-----

I prefer on a DVD the original sound (which means mono in the case of
UFO) and only *if* they've got good sources (stereo music,
separate effects tracks) a properly mixed surround track as a second
choice. For a CD I prefer a (at least close to the original) stereo
soundtrack and if not possible the original mono soundtrack.

The Lunadude wrote:
-----> If Barry Gray was around today and he decided to remix the
stereo 4 tracks into stereo for CD release that would fine with me <--
---

You mean because it would be *his* decision and therefore it would be
fine even if it would sound like the Fanderson CD? :-) Yes, yes, I
know: it wouldn't sound like the Fanderson CD and Gray's
decision would be to release it in mono. But again: sadly, Barry is
no longer with us :-( It would be *really* interesting what he would
have in mind... (maybe a 5.1 surround sound, hehe)

Marc wrote:
-----> I probably would have been happy if Barry Gray was the one who
created the stereo versions, as he was a very talented man and knew
what he wanted in the first place. <-----

I would be happy, too. Then one could say: maybe it didn't sound
right like in the series but Barry Gray wanted the stereo mixes so :-)

Christian

[i] Henderson to Straker in CONFLICT

----- Original Message -----
From: "Christian J." <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2003 9:43 AM
Subject: [SHADO] soundtrack discussion


<snip>

The Lunadude wrote:
-----> I think the analogy between the mono - stereo and the
colourisation of black and films is a good one. The colourisation was
a abomination. <-----

What's the problem with colourised movies? Although I prefer the
movies and series in its original black and white format (like the
Miss Marple movies with Margaret Rutherford or THE AVENGERS season 4
which was in b/w, too) because they've got a certain mood,
I've got no problems with a colourised one. First, every TV set
is able to remove the colour so you can always watch it in b/w and
second, sometimes it is interesting to see what would it look like if
they made it in colour. And if it doesn't satisfy me ---> First
:-) So, I don't think it could be called an abomination...

>>> To the best of my knowledge, my TV can not remove the color (maybe I just
haven't found the setting?)
>>> The point is that the material was not originally in color - so why mess
with it now?
>>> I have to ask this -- are the colorizers UNDER 30 years old? I would think
they are.
>>> Also - the colorizing process is awful and who is to say WHICH colors are
to be used? Do we have pictures from the sets to identify the correct colors?
I could be wrong, but I thought that sets to be filmed in b/w weren't always
painted in vivid colors - they were painted in colors that showed up nicely on
b/w film...but perhaps I am wrong? Except for series that were b/w originally
and then went color, we wouldn't have a basis for the colors to be used in the
colorization process.
>>> Also -- what about THE WIZARD OF OZ -- the first part is in sepia
tones/black & white -- should those sections be colorized too?

Thinking of it, when I saw UFO for the first time I saw it in black
and white, so if I would be a *real* hard-core fan, shouldn't I
be dissatisfied with the colour episodes on the DVDs... ;-)

>>>That's totally different than what we are saying -- UFO was in color to
begin with. If you choose to continue to enjoy it in b/w then that's your
choice. I guess the best compromise would be to have colorized versions and
original b/w versions on the same DVD. ;-)

>What's the problem with colourised movies? Although I prefer the
>movies and series in its original black and white format

I think the problem with colorization is that your tinkering with
the original work of the director of photography. The people making
the film KNEW that the film/show would be in black & white, and they
lit it accordingly. Often times black & white movies can take
advantage of the fact that they are in black & white and make use
of stark contrasts. However, when you colorize the movie, the first
thing you generally do is to reduce the contrast, and then the
act of colorizing reduces the contrast even further. The final
effect on the viewer is then different. Take a look at the original
OUTER LIMITS TV series -- they really took advantage of the fact
that they were shooting in black & white, and any attempt to
colorize it would dilute the viewing experience.

I think the analogy between colorizing and remixing a mono soundtrack
into stereo is a good one. When UFO was recorded, they knew the
final product was going to be in mono, so they recorded it for that.
A question for anyone who knows -- if, in 1969, someone was planning
on releasing a stereo album, how many tracks would the original master
tape typically have? Would they have used 4, like UFO did, or would
they have used more or less? Or is this something that cannot be
generalized.

Also, for the folks who have this CD, what do you think of the track
selection? There's an awful lot of music from UFO that didn't make
it into this CD, so I'm wondering if you think the choice of tracks
was appropriate? Are there specific music pieces that you were hoping
to hear that aren't on this CD?

Marc

Marc wrote:

> A question for anyone who knows -- if, in 1969, someone was planning
> on releasing a stereo album, how many tracks would the original master
> tape typically have? Would they have used 4, like UFO did, or would
> they have used more or less? Or is this something that cannot be
> generalized.
>

4 track recording was starting to become rather uncommon by the
late sixties. The Beatles' 'Sergeant Pepper' was famously recorded
on four track tape in 1967, but advances in recording technology
and practices were happening very quickly and 8 track was much more
commonly used in 1969. The Beach Boys were using 8-track as long
ago as 1965. 16-track was in use by 1971, and 24 track not far
behind.

Certainly I think that _less_ than 4 tracks wouldn't have been used
for a professional recording in 1969, unless it was a solo acoustic
guitar recording or something similar.

James

Anthony D. wrote:
-----> To the best of my knowledge, my TV can not remove the color
(maybe I just haven't found the setting?) <-----

Anthony, I have a opinion which is called "colour
saturation". When I reduce it the picture becomes black and
white. I had this with all my TV sets so far but maybe some
telly's don't have it?

-----> I could be wrong, but I thought that sets to be filmed in b/w
weren't always painted in vivid colors <-----
and Marc:
-----> The people making the film KNEW that the film/show would be in
black & white, and they lit it accordingly. Often times black &
white movies can take advantage of the fact that they are in black &
white and make use of stark contrasts. However, when you colorize
the movie, the first thing you generally do is to reduce the
contrast, and then the act of colorizing reduces the contrast even
further. The final effect on the viewer is then different. Take a
look at the original OUTER LIMITS TV series -- they really took
advantage of the fact that they were shooting in black & white, and
any attempt to colorize it would dilute the viewing experience. <-----

Gentlemen, these are very good statements! I totally agree with you!
Maybe you've got the impression from my last posting that I'm
a fan of colourization which is *not* the case. For example, I'm
glad that MGM released the OUTER LIMITS DVDs in their original black
and white (and in mono). I only wanted to say that I have no problems
with colourization at all because it can't bother me (since
fading out the colour is possible for me) and it *could* be an
interesting experience. But if I couldn't fade out the colour it
*definitely would* bother me :-) But luckily they don't colorize
many movies and I don't remember a TV series which was colorized
so far.

Anthony D. wrote:
-----> That's totally different than what we are saying -- UFO was in
color to begin with. If you choose to continue to enjoy it in b/w
then that's your choice. <-----

I was only joking, Anthony ;-)

Marc wrote:
-----> Also, for the folks who have this CD, what do you think of the
track selection? There's an awful lot of music from UFO that didn't
make it into this CD, so I'm wondering if you think the choice of
tracks was appropriate? Are there specific music pieces that you were
hoping to hear that aren't on this CD? <-----

I find it well done. It's really interesting to listen to cues
which were composed for the episodes but not used (at least not in
the episodes which they were composed for). I'd like to listen to
the music from the episodes THE RESPONSIBILITY SEAT and REFLECTIONS
IN THE WATER or MINDBENDER e.g., on the other hand the title theme
from RESPONSIBILTY SEAT can be heard on CD 2 in the middle of track
19 ("Beginning to take shape") and some cues from REFLECTIONS
and other episodes are available on the SPACE: 1999 Year One discs
(like the Ellis-removes-the-Alien-helmet sequence from ORDEAL which
can be heard on disc 2 Track 6 "The Cuckoo" [from ALPHA
CHILD]).

But I hope that Fanderson will release another UFO (double?) CD! (And
what about the soundtracks from STINGRAY and JOE 90? :-)

Christian

> I think the analogy between colorizing and remixing a mono
soundtrack
> into stereo is a good one. When UFO was recorded, they knew the
> final product was going to be in mono, so they recorded it for that.
> A question for anyone who knows -- if, in 1969, someone was planning
> on releasing a stereo album, how many tracks would the original
master
> tape typically have? Would they have used 4, like UFO did, or would
> they have used more or less? Or is this something that cannot be
> generalized.


One point to consider is that in 1969 that the majority of records
that sold in the UK were still mono. For instance stereo singles were
not common place until 1972/3 The conversion to stereo certainly
lagged behind the US were the conversion to was all but complete by
1967. So had a UFO soundtrack been released in 1969/70 certainly the
predominate format would have been mono. stereo formats were
definatley around at the time but were produced in significantly lower
numbers, hence why original stereo recordings of popular artist from
the period are extremely collectible and are sold at a premium on the
collectors market today.


Although, the stereo was becoming increasingly popular by '69/'70 and
as a way of reacting to this, and to cash in on this a lot record
companies would bash out reprocessed stereo. In the UK, this was done
by taking the mono recording boosting the bass in one channel and the
reverb in the other. So this is how perhaps a commercial stereo
edition of a 1970 UFO soundtrack would have appeared back then. I'm
not condoning this practice but pointing how it was done and it was
cheap way of saying you had stereo recordings out there. Before
anybody chimes in, true stereo recordings were about then, but they
were often aimed at the audophile market and often were sold at a
premium somtimes as much a £1 more !! hence why mono LP's sold better.
Sometimes stereo LP only appeared on open reel recordings - these were
nearly alway exclusively available from audiophile outlets.

It is interesting note that when Barry Gray used Pye Studios he used
studio 2 which was the smaller of the studios at Pye mainly used by
groups and smaller ensembles, whilst studio 1 was far larger and was
used mainly by big bands and orchestra's. Studio 1 had 8 track
installed late 1968/early '69. For some reason reason when Barry Gray
used these facilities he chose less well equiped and smaller studio 2.

To answer Marc's question you can record quite adequate stereo on four
track as long as that is your intention from the outset. I can't speak
for Barry Gray but common practice as regards recording on 4 track
during this period was to record the sessions on tracks 1-3 and use
the the forth track for the mono mix. Once the artist is satisfied
with final mix it is transferred to a production master. Pye studios
certainly had a policy once the production master had been struck of
wiping session tape for re-use due to the expense of the tape. This
would perhaps explain why the Long Sleep section appears in mono as
they are credited as being recorded at Pye studio 2.

The Lunadude.

Christian. Silver Screen Records
will be releasing JOE 90 next year.
They are currently working on
CAPTAIN SCARLET & THE MYSTERONS.
Both releases will be single discs,
sadly.

Christian quotes from the Fanderson UFO soundtrack booklet:
> Stereo Tracks Remixed and Re-engineered by MIKE COX
> Digital Editing and Restoration by TIM MALLETT

So all the stereo tracks were remixed by the same person, eh? In
listening to the CD (over and over and...), I had come up with a
theory that perhaps they divided up the remixing chores, and one
person was better at it than the other. I say this because for the
most part the remixes are as close to perfect as you could probably
get, and then there are others that aren't that accurate. It almost
seems like it's divided up on a "per episode" basis -- for example,
the music from SURVIVAL seems perfect, while the music from EXPOSED
seems off in several places. In many cases, it would have been a
simple matter to fix the problem -- turn down/up the level of a
specific instrument to make it match the balance in the original mono
mix. Oh well... I still think it's a "must have" CD... just one with
some minor frustrations associated with it (well, for me at least).

And, one of the frustrations could be fixed if they really do issue a
third disc containing the missing material from the other episodes,
and the liner notes hint.

Marc

>Christian quotes from the Fanderson UFO soundtrack booklet:
> Stereo Tracks Remixed and Re-engineered by MIKE COX
> Digital Editing and Restoration by TIM MALLETT

Right, I just got my CD today and I haven't been keeping up with the
discussion as I wanted to listen to it without prejudice, if you know what I
mean, and I have a thick-person's question to ask. Are these newly recorded
versions of the original score or remastered versions of the original
soundtrack used on the programme?

Do like what I've heard so far though, although they could've done with
taking the drumkit levels down a bit as it's a little overpowering on my CD,
and you'd think with digital technology the way it is today that they could
have cut some of teh background noise - page turns, coughs, drumsticks being
dropped etc. That is slightly off-putting in some of the quieter places I
found.

Jess

>Are these newly recorded
>versions of the original score or remastered versions of the original
>soundtrack used on the programme?

These are the original recordings from 1969, remixed into stereo in 2002.

>Do like what I've heard so far though, although they could've done with
>taking the drumkit levels down a bit as it's a little overpowering on my CD

Yes, there are some specific tracks where the drums are cranked up
too high and the main instruments are turned down to low. That's a
fault of the remixing.

Marc

----- Original Message -----
From: "Marc Martin" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 3:49 PM
Subject: Re: [SHADO] soundtrack discussion


> >Do like what I've heard so far though, although they could've done with
> >taking the drumkit levels down a bit as it's a little overpowering on my
CD
>
> Yes, there are some specific tracks where the drums are cranked up
> too high and the main instruments are turned down to low. That's a
> fault of the remixing.


I'd say that's a matter of opinion though. Personally, I think the drumkit
levels are right-on, but thats because I love the drumkit! (And as I said
before, the main reason I was slightly disappointed in the drums being
slightly mixed down on some of the Space 1999 Year 2 cues....) Of course
this does mean that the 'sound' is altered from what you are used to
hearing. Again its a matter of taste I suppose. The harp parts seem very
prominent in the mixes and I love that. So I don't agree that the end result
is a "fault" of remixing. Just happens that that is what happens when you do
remix!

By the way Marc, going back to the 'Foster Gets Beaten Up By Thugs' cue from
EXPOSED....as we have noted, this sounds markedly different to how we are
used to hearing it and on this occasion I do agree with you that this remix
isn't anywhere near as effective as the original. I don't find it horrible
either, I should add.

But again that's a by-product of remixing. Perosnally I can live with it -
and as I said I think this is a GREAT album - but I can understand those who
prefer things to be 'left alone', as it were.......!

Simon

The other thing I forgot to add........the music sounds really crisp and
clear. Hard to believe the music was recorded over thirty years ago!

Simon

> The other thing I forgot to add........the music sounds really
> crisp and clear. Hard to believe the music was recorded over
> thirty years ago!

Well, I don't think audio recording technology has noticeable improved
all that much over the past 30 years. I'm sure there
are many old-timers who think things have gone steadily downhill
since the switch from tubes to transistors... (and don't even
get them started by discussing digital!)

Marc