possible alien explanation

Hi,
 
>  that the "aliens" may if fact be humans from the distant future?
 
It's not even the time travel aspect that I have a problem with there, though of course killing people in the past is tricky business (time paradoxes). No, what I see as the main difficulty there is the fact that humankind would really have to do a MAJOR turnaround in morals, practically developing backwards ethically and as a civilisation instead of forward. I do not really see that.
 
Additionally, if I were SHADO chief - knowing such is the future - I'd simply blow up the planet. Not worth protecting. ;-)
 
Cheers
 
An





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

  I have to totally agree with Lightcudder's POV here. He's nailed the whole time travel thing pretty much in terms of why would the aliens bother with humans in the 20th-21st centuries. And he's right - this idea is NOT supported or even hinted at in the series. I can see some deviation in theories, but this one is too wide. Pam McCaughey


   
  One major problem with time travel stories is that they are always flawed. If aliens came back from the future to 'harvest' humans, why choose to come to a time where humans are relatively technologically advanced?

  Why not return to the Middle Ages, no pollution, easy 'pickings'. Or why not return to when Straker was a child and kill him then? (Assuming that one of their prime reasons for coming to Earth was to destroy Straker?).

  There would also be evidence of mutation, with the 'future' humans
  being taller for example, and this was not evident in the aliens that were recovered. If they were coming from the future, they wouldn't need to come from outside the Solar System either.

  It's an interesting idea, but one that isn't really supported by the facts in the series.

  --- In [hidden email], "Marc Martin" <marc@...> wrote:
  >
  > > Here is another twist, has anyone considered that the "aliens" may if
  > > fact be humans from the distant future?
  >
  > That would be a good twist for the UFO movie... :-)
  >
  > Marc
  >



 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

keeping it simply and current............
beetlejuice is going super nova in 2011 our time, and will be a nebula.
back in 1980, 31 years ago, the big push for colonization from a planet or station in that star system would be likely. [just from what we know today] so lets say go back one hundred years. keep a relevant event list of ufo sightings/visitations/mutilations and kidnappings. knowing that thier star would explode they 'MUST COME TO EARTH'
as a 'MATTER OF SURVIVAL'
also, we know that they use psytronics as a means of mind control, maybe the emp blasts from thier dying star fried thier brains and they are insane and desperates and need to have something steady thier minds.
the ufo's blow up if they are in the atmosphere, or sunlight too long. since they hide out of direct sunlight, aversion of strong rays of yellow sunlight could indicate long term exposure to an enviroment of a different spectrum of light. the molecule simply absorb too much heat and electrons from photon bombardment and build up and explode.
also today i saw in the news that they have made a closed reflector that traps laser light inside it until the actual ingredients burn out and are gone. so short term light exhaustion is a factor.
jim

--- On Fri, 2/18/11, An Delendir <[hidden email]> wrote:


From: An Delendir <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [SHADO] Re: possible alien explanation
To: [hidden email]
Date: Friday, February 18, 2011, 1:02 PM


 



Hi,
 
>  that the "aliens" may if fact be humans from the distant future?
 
It's not even the time travel aspect that I have a problem with there, though of course killing people in the past is tricky business (time paradoxes). No, what I see as the main difficulty there is the fact that humankind would really have to do a MAJOR turnaround in morals, practically developing backwards ethically and as a civilisation instead of forward. I do not really see that.
 
Additionally, if I were SHADO chief - knowing such is the future - I'd simply blow up the planet. Not worth protecting. ;-)
 
Cheers
 
An

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

i think that if you go back in time, that already changes everything, so killing your own ancestry wont affect the you that is back in time, there simply wont be the you that went back in time born in the time line that you went back in time -in.
jim

--- On Fri, 2/18/11, Jason Sweet <[hidden email]> wrote:


From: Jason Sweet <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [SHADO] Re: possible alien explanation
To: "[hidden email]" <[hidden email]>
Date: Friday, February 18, 2011, 12:53 PM


 



I agree with the time-travel problem. There was a film called "The Final Countdown" produced in the 80's where Martin Sheen stated that if he were to "somehow go back in time and meet his grandfather. And upon meeting him, he has an argument with him and kills him. If that were to happen, how could he ever be born? And if he can never be born, how could he have gone back in time to kill his grandfather???

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 18, 2011, at 12:40 PM, "Lightcudder" <[hidden email]> wrote:

One major problem with time travel stories is that they are always flawed. If aliens came back from the future to 'harvest' humans, why choose to come to a time where humans are relatively technologically advanced?

Why not return to the Middle Ages, no pollution, easy 'pickings'. Or why not return to when Straker was a child and kill him then? (Assuming that one of their prime reasons for coming to Earth was to destroy Straker?).

There would also be evidence of mutation, with the 'future' humans
being taller for example, and this was not evident in the aliens that were recovered. If they were coming from the future, they wouldn't need to come from outside the Solar System either.

It's an interesting idea, but one that isn't really supported by the facts in the series.

--- In [hidden email], "Marc Martin" <marc@...> wrote:
>
> > Here is another twist, has anyone considered that the "aliens" may if
> > fact be humans from the distant future?
>
> That would be a good twist for the UFO movie... :-)
>
> Marc
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

 
moderator please check out my message at the end of this comment before posting.
 
well i can think one reason or two right away, if humans really evolve and change, there might be a line you cant cross where transplants and such work, and then before that, they dont work.
also there might be a strong allergic reaction to a earlier, more purer human race, if you transplanted organs from someone into a person who has dna that is used to nuclear waste or smog or electro magnetic radiation, the organs might reject. or even a certain level of sunlight. if they have a resistance to lower levels of sunlight or whatever,..... the earlier organs might not take. because they are so different in thier bio-chem needs.
but i agree too, even though its a really neat plot, i dont think that it fits with the series, unless,
some of the ufos are them, comming back in time. after all, didnt they experiment with time in some of the last few episodes? so they continued until they could time travel and then came back, chasing that one guy with the blind old lady radio show to shado, and firing on his ship to stop him from inventing time tampering?
whew,.....someone figure this out!!!!
jim
by the way , to the moderator, if you allow it, i would like to post a link to a funny video that is not ufo related but still sci- fi parody, someone named ''spockboy'' has a few home movies out there that are humerous.
j
 
--- On Fri, 2/18/11, Pam McCaughey <[hidden email]> wrote:


From: Pam McCaughey <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [SHADO] Re: possible alien explanation
To: [hidden email]
Date: Friday, February 18, 2011, 1:30 PM


 




I have to totally agree with Lightcudder's POV here. He's nailed the whole time travel thing pretty much in terms of why would the aliens bother with humans in the 20th-21st centuries. And he's right - this idea is NOT supported or even hinted at in the series. I can see some deviation in theories, but this one is too wide. Pam McCaughey

One major problem with time travel stories is that they are always flawed. If aliens came back from the future to 'harvest' humans, why choose to come to a time where humans are relatively technologically advanced?

Why not return to the Middle Ages, no pollution, easy 'pickings'. Or why not return to when Straker was a child and kill him then? (Assuming that one of their prime reasons for coming to Earth was to destroy Straker?).

There would also be evidence of mutation, with the 'future' humans
being taller for example, and this was not evident in the aliens that were recovered. If they were coming from the future, they wouldn't need to come from outside the Solar System either.

It's an interesting idea, but one that isn't really supported by the facts in the series.

--- In [hidden email], "Marc Martin" <marc@...> wrote:
>
> > Here is another twist, has anyone considered that the "aliens" may if
> > fact be humans from the distant future?
>
> That would be a good twist for the UFO movie... :-)
>
> Marc
>

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There is a theory in physics that would prevent the "grandfather paradox" from ever occuring. It's called the Novikov self-consistency principle. In theory time travel to the past would be possible but events would not be allowed to be altered. If you tried to shoot your grandfather, you would miss, or the gun would miss-fire and so on, thus preventing the paradox.

I suggested this idea as one possible solution because it was once brought up in a documentry on the UFO phenomonon. Louise makes a valid point as to why this may not fit although in the distant future accurate historical records may no longer exist, having been destoryed in a natural or (more likely) a man made disater.

Based on events depicted in the series no single soultion seems to fit.

Hi,
 
...It's called the Novikov self-consistency principle....
 
This theorem also means that no change whatsoever is possible, making time travel pretty much useless per se, because what happens happens, regardless of what the time traveller does.
 
However, the one UFO reference to time travel is not actually a "travel". Instead time sequence and experience is altered, time is frozen for HQ, except for a few select persons and the attacking UFO. And even these people happen to function at - at times - different "speeds".
 
That's a completely different kind of beast, and geared to potentially achieve different kinds of effects. Stephen King did something quite similar and rather intriguing with his Langoliers.
 
Cheers
 
An
 



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

My brain hurts.

I did try to work out a simple explanation for the time travel paradox in a UFO story called  AfterMath:

Ths is my explanation at the end of the story:

'There are lots of theories, but it's usually the simplest ones that are most likely.'  Straker sat back behind his desk, its Perspex surface tidy and organised. `It's probably best to think of time as a piece of string.  It goes in a line,  but Janus made the string loop back upon itself, to rejoin the initial line and start a new path from where we managed to change history. May 19th to be exact. However, we travelled along the whole of the string, unlike everyone else, those who died. They were not on the string at the end of the loop, so they don't remember. Because we survived, we still have those memories. Don't worry too much about it. Just enjoy each day.'



Whatever, it's sci-fi!  Endless possibilities.
Lightcudder..  








 
--- In [hidden email], "." <aquaboi@...> wrote:
>
> i think that if you go back in time, that already changes everything, so killing your own ancestry wont affect the you that is back in time, there simply wont be the you that went back in time born in the time line that you went back in time -in.
> jim
>
> --- On Fri, 2/18/11, Jason Sweet <hurdlehawk@...> wrote:
>
>

That is a great idea, sadly already filmed in a TV  US film around 1993 featuring the actor Dirk Benedict.

--- On Fri, 2/18/11, Marc Martin <[hidden email]> wrote:

From: Marc Martin <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [SHADO] Re: possible alien explanation
To: [hidden email]
Date: Friday, February 18, 2011, 7:36 PM







 



 


   
     
     
      > Here is another twist, has anyone considered that the "aliens" may if

> fact be humans from the distant future?



That would be a good twist for the UFO movie... :-)



Marc



   
     

   
   


 



 






     

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The Noikov SCP scenrio would work well for the alien's body snatching provided that they only took those who were going to die soon anyway. Like in the 1989 movie Millennium.

The more likely time travel mechanisam would be the many-worlds interpretation of quantum mechanics. Every possible permutation of events has been played out in it's own universe and the time traveler is moving between these universes. By nature this eliminates the paradox completely. That could explain percognition as well. (Oh boy, another plot bunny!)

Again, I just threw this out to be kicked around, this subject could have it's own sub forum. *grin*


> Whatever, it's sci-fi!  Endless possibilities.
> Lightcudder..  

Got it in one L! I agree! :)

The postulations are just getting better, really enjoying the new ideas. Love the temporal storyline that the war was caused by Straker (is that correct?) and the aliens are from the future: and the other story that they are us BUT from the future.

--- On Fri, 2/18/11, . <[hidden email]> wrote:

From: . <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [SHADO] Re: possible alien explanation
To: [hidden email]
Date: Friday, February 18, 2011, 7:56 PM







 



 


   
     
     
      i want to throw this in, in one of the fan movies bound to be made, maybe by fighting the ufo's we actually create the disaster that the futurenauts need to come back in time to kill straker about. the desperate pleas'''''''WE NEED TO COME TO EARTH, DONT YOU UNDERSTAND''''''IT IS A MATTER OF SURVIVAL'''''' that the channelers blurt out in an emotional display bordering on insanity, could be that they dont relate to us because of a desperate viewpoint, and have narrowed thier vision to escape into the past. one thing is for sure, they just didnt want to tell us about it at all. the mystery of U.F.O. tv series is one of the most appealing aspects of the show to me.

jim



--- On Fri, 2/18/11, Marc Martin <[hidden email]> wrote:



From: Marc Martin <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [SHADO] Re: possible alien explanation

To: [hidden email]

Date: Friday, February 18, 2011, 11:36 AM



 



> Here is another twist, has anyone considered that the "aliens" may if

> fact be humans from the distant future?



That would be a good twist for the UFO movie... :-)



Marc



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This is tricky. Of all my favourite sci-fi / science and physics subjects, time travel is my Number 1.
Perhaps the aliens can only reach Earth at that specific date or time in the spacetime continuim? If current TT theory stands: you can only go back "into" a past time if there is a corridor / tunnel already made at the time the time traveler intends to visit. If the corridor is not there already then you ain't going anywhen, if you see what I mean. If you do see what I mean then seek help! Ha!

--- On Fri, 2/18/11, . <[hidden email]> wrote:

From: . <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [SHADO] Re: possible alien explanation
To: [hidden email]
Date: Friday, February 18, 2011, 8:53 PM







 



 


   
     
     
      i have a comment on the time travel, if they were unable to get a complete time-space lock on earth, they might launch into a near miss co-ordinant and then come zooming in from where ever they came into, say a few light months from earth.

jim



--- On Fri, 2/18/11, Lightcudder <[hidden email]> wrote:



From: Lightcudder <[hidden email]>

Subject: [SHADO] Re: possible alien explanation

To: [hidden email]

Date: Friday, February 18, 2011, 12:40 PM



 



One major problem with time travel stories is that they are always flawed. If aliens came back from the future to 'harvest' humans, why choose to come to a time where humans are relatively technologically advanced?



Why not return to the Middle Ages, no pollution, easy 'pickings'. Or why not return to when Straker was a child and kill him then? (Assuming that one of their prime reasons for coming to Earth was to destroy Straker?).



There would also be evidence of mutation, with the 'future' humans

being taller for example, and this was not evident in the aliens that were recovered. If they were coming from the future, they wouldn't need to come from outside the Solar System either.



It's an interesting idea, but one that isn't really supported by the facts in the series.



--- In [hidden email], "Marc Martin" <marc@...> wrote:

>

> > Here is another twist, has anyone considered that the "aliens" may if

> > fact be humans from the distant future?

>

> That would be a good twist for the UFO movie... :-)

>

> Marc

>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





   
     

   
   


 



 






     

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Time travel stories are loads of fun to write, I've written two (so far) and I have at least two more in my head. In one of my planned stories SHADO has managed to reverse engineer some of the temporal technology used by the aliens and a group of military brassheads (outside of SHADO) have caught wind of this breakthrough. Through political means they are able to gain access to the information which leads to World War 3. The aliens sieze the chance to come in and take over. This is a sequel to a story I wrote last year.

This thread got me thinking about Timelash and the time manipulation and time travel aspect of that episode. I wrote an essay on the subject this morning.

--- In [hidden email], Stevan Warburton <stevanbcool@...> wrote:
>
> The postulations are just getting better, really enjoying the new ideas. Love the temporal storyline that the war was caused by Straker (is that correct?) and the aliens are from the future: and the other story that they are us BUT from the future.

Hey Lightcudder May 19th is MY birthday!!!! Pam McCaughey
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Lightcudder
  To: [hidden email]
  Sent: Saturday, February 19, 2011 6:31 AM
  Subject: [SHADO] Re: possible alien explanation


   
  My brain hurts.

  I did try to work out a simple explanation for the time travel paradox in a UFO story called AfterMath:

  Ths is my explanation at the end of the story:

  'There are lots of theories, but it's usually the simplest ones that are most likely.' Straker sat back behind his desk, its Perspex surface tidy and organised. `It's probably best to think of time as a piece of string. It goes in a line, but Janus made the string loop back upon itself, to rejoin the initial line and start a new path from where we managed to change history. May 19th to be exact. However, we travelled along the whole of the string, unlike everyone else, those who died. They were not on the string at the end of the loop, so they don't remember. Because we survived, we still have those memories. Don't worry too much about it. Just enjoy each day.'

  Whatever, it's sci-fi! Endless possibilities.
  Lightcudder..

  --- In [hidden email], "." <aquaboi@...> wrote:
  >
  > i think that if you go back in time, that already changes everything, so killing your own ancestry wont affect the you that is back in time, there simply wont be the you that went back in time born in the time line that you went back in time -in.
  > jim
  >
  > --- On Fri, 2/18/11, Jason Sweet <hurdlehawk@...> wrote:
  >
  >



 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

--- In [hidden email], "Matt" <ka1bqp@...> wrote:
> This thread got me thinking about Timelash and the time manipulation and time travel aspect of that episode. I wrote an essay on the subject this morning.

So, Matt.  Where's the essay?  I want to read it!

Quite accidental I assure you Pam, I think I started writing the story in May last year!  As for birthdays.., ( big grin here..) Mine is the same day as Ed Straker's (according to the script of The Patriot, which provides the only written evidence of his DoB.)

--- In [hidden email], "Pam McCaughey" <mccaug@...> wrote:

Still working on the final version. It will be posted on both yours and Deb's forum when it's finished.

> So, Matt.  Where's the essay?  I want to read it!

A good book to read on the reality of physical temporal travel is called "How to build a time machine", I forget the author, a Dr or Prof I think and it was in the popular science section from that bookshop that eludes me at the moment.

--- On Sat, 2/19/11, Matt <[hidden email]> wrote:

From: Matt <[hidden email]>
Subject: [SHADO] Time travel stuff
To: [hidden email]
Date: Saturday, February 19, 2011, 8:27 PM







 



 


   
     
     
      Time travel stories are loads of fun to write, I've written two (so far) and I have at least two more in my head. In one of my planned stories SHADO has managed to reverse engineer some of the temporal technology used by the aliens and a group of military brassheads (outside of SHADO) have caught wind of this breakthrough. Through political means they are able to gain access to the information which leads to World War 3. The aliens sieze the chance to come in and take over. This is a sequel to a story I wrote last year.



This thread got me thinking about Timelash and the time manipulation and time travel aspect of that episode. I wrote an essay on the subject this morning.



--- In [hidden email], Stevan Warburton <stevanbcool@...> wrote:

>

> The postulations are just getting better, really enjoying the new ideas. Love the temporal storyline that the war was caused by Straker (is that correct?) and the aliens are from the future: and the other story that they are us BUT from the future.





   
     

   
   


 



 






     

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

ok i have compilled all the data so far as this topic goes that we have mentioned.
here is a story line i have come up with.
a ufo is shot down by skydiver and the alien surrenders to the mobile teams. the ufo is fully scanned and photo'd before it blow up.
the alien began his own de-fluidization and surrendured to dr. jacksons treatments.
the green faced alien was completely human.
he told a story that he was a slave mining silicone and creating globes for electronic alien entities to in habit, and when he had learned enough, he stole a ship and suit and went back in time to inform on the aliens to the legendary straker. there was only one chance every few weeks through a time corridor that would allow a ship to exit the corridor near earth. most of the ship was on automatic. he had to evade this time's ufos so came in full speed and would have safe landed and surrendured but was shot down.
he tells straker of how in a few years, massive waves of ufos from the home world would come with relay devices and kamikaze the earth, to bring the e-a-e's to earth and take over the people. burning out all but the essential parts of their brains. a few would escape underground. the frankenstien'd human/alien bodies would be discarded in his time for full humans controlled by electronic alien broadcasts from earth towers , from space satillites, and then all the way back to the alien homeworlds, where two civilizations fought constantly, the conscousness of the aliens, and thier rodent like bodies they left behind that breed uncontrollably and attack and destroy thier installations constantly.
thus the desperate need to come to earth. unfortunately, they just forgot what life was about, and kept taking slaves to mine silicone and minerals for their relays pods.
the alien was fresh and trained before brain mutilation initiation and escaped to tell straker of the war with it's great finalely, where straker roasts the van allen belt into a force field, a slow lingering death for earth, but better than letting the aliens grab it and use it. a few observers from the future have come back to see and report and be destroyed, one went insane when an old lady said she was blind. it infuriated him to be reminded of how blind they really were about the past and what life was about, and broadcasted to shadow his hostage's pleas, trying to communicate his frustration and finally, walking out to be destroyed rather than live with it.
the aliens wont ever understand earth living, but this boy who bravely ran away back into time wanted straker to know all he knew, before he died. and at that moment, jackson and his psychic assistants who helped communicate all this, and straker, watched the young man die, and fade away.
there. can anyone do anything with that one?
jim

--- On Sun, 2/20/11, Matt <[hidden email]> wrote:


From: Matt <[hidden email]>
Subject: [SHADO] Re: Time travel stuff
To: [hidden email]
Date: Sunday, February 20, 2011, 9:27 AM


 



Still working on the final version. It will be posted on both yours and Deb's forum when it's finished.

> So, Matt. Where's the essay? I want to read it!








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

That sound like it would be a good read Steve, I'll have to check into it. I've found some good articles on Wiki that cover paradoxes, causality, and all the other subtopics associated with the subject. It's complicated, and as I said, it could have it's own subforum, or full forum for that matter.

Matt