New in the SHADO Library

Hi Griff... That is a pretty reasonable explanation, that Nina Barry was `new` to Moonbase. As for Subsmash being after Survival it still makes sense. Nina had trained on subs, and moved to get experience on Moonbase, but was still an experienced submarine operative.

Your point about Straker calling her Miss Barry  only serves to emphasise  that perhaps there was a  deeper friendship between Nina and Straker as we saw in Subsmash.

LtCdr!

--- In [hidden email], "griffwason" <griff@...> wrote:

> Hi!   My thoughts on this!  I think the champagne in Computer Affair was said to  date from 1984,
> although the episode itself was supposed to be set in 1981 so there is a discrepancy there.

Oh you're right -- Bradley said 1984, not 1982.  Either way, suspicious.

> As for Long Sleep, I  am not sure where  1980 comes from?

Straker refers to an explosion in Turkey that took place in 1970.  Foster
then says "That was ten years ago!".

Marc

Hi Marc


> And that would have taken many years of planning,
> construction, and training.

Planning and excavation from zero of such an enormous building with such extreme technical and other demands placed on it alone would take 2-3 years. And that means there are only the foundations laid. Nothing more. They weren't building prefab here, they were building 80 feet underground, with immensely thick walls and hiding the HQ as they were building.

So yes, by the time they are ready to take up functional SHADO it is quite alright to calculate 6-7 years. Huge buildings take that long, and they also parallely had to train their staff.

> So perhaps the real "blooper" here is that Ed and Mary's
> marriage didn't really seem to have progressed by 6-7
> years by the time Johnny was born. I mean, what did they
> do? They bought a house, bought some drapes, Straker
> never came home, Mary got pregnant, Mary got suspicious,
> Mary had a baby. All of this seemed to have taken
> place in 1-2 years, not 6-7 years. So there is an
> inconsistency between the developments in their marriage
> and the development of SHADO.

Actually I again don't think so. Mary and Ed Straker went from really really very much in love and happy to a full separation including a child in the offing. That is not nothing, and for the time period these 6-7 years do work out for that.

I'm afraid that people these days separate and divorce much easier and faster, in real life and in countless TV shows and movies, so that for us  it looks a bit curious if a couple sticks together for longer.

Refurnishing that huge house they bought alone might have taken 12 to 18 months if done properly and not using any outside firms, except for the craftwork. Conception is no thing which perforce happens overnight, there are people who take years to achieve that, and Straker was an extremely  stressed man, rarely at home early. For Mary to go from so thoroughly in love to nearly abhorring him has to have taken some time as well. She was pretty understanding of his absences and work in the beginning.

So, I do see a distinct development there. Let's not forget, to all purposes Mary was a very properly raised Englishwoman, upper middle-class or even upper-class. She went most likely against her parents' wishes with marrying someone US military as well. Both would also account for her not giving in easily.

Thus, I see no discrepancy there. I think part of the problem is that Mary's plight has always been played down, that she always has been described as being someone who should have just pulled herself together for a few months and everything would have been fine then.

That simply isn't the case. The minimum amount of years between marriage and her giving birth is 6 years, and that's stretching it. The times are very precisely mentioned. You can give or take 6-12 months, but not much more!

And a woman who will stay under such conditions for that many years, means that she was extremely patient and mildmannered, and also very naive. Seeing her that way, it is much easier to also see the development which did take place.

Cheers

An

it says in that one episode i think its called 'timelash' that the aliens can isolate and control time periods according to thier desire. and this traitor who was taunting straker in that episode said that he could control time and play it like a musical instrument. he was also missing for a while in the episode,......did he go back and meddle?
that would account for the dates being imconpatable. and it is cannon.
thank you,
jim

--- On Sat, 6/11/11, Marc Martin <[hidden email]> wrote:


From: Marc Martin <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [SHADO] Re: UFO Bloopers
To: [hidden email]
Date: Saturday, June 11, 2011, 11:54 AM


 



> Hi! My thoughts on this! I think the champagne in Computer Affair was said to date from 1984,
> although the episode itself was supposed to be set in 1981 so there is a discrepancy there.

Oh you're right -- Bradley said 1984, not 1982. Either way, suspicious.

> As for Long Sleep, I am not sure where 1980 comes from?

Straker refers to an explosion in Turkey that took place in 1970. Foster
then says "That was ten years ago!".

Marc







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Marc.. In Long Sleep, Straker says. `Do you remember Turkey in 1974' (28 mins into the episode!), and then says  `Our  farmhouse incident occurred three  days later.'

 So Long Sleep  must have happened in 1984, given that the references are about an incident that  happened `ten years ago' which is rather vague and could easily mean longer.

The 1970 reference is in Chris Bentley's book which just  shows that some references are flawed!,

LtCdr!

--- In [hidden email], "Marc Martin" <marc@...> wrote:

> Hi Marc.. In Long Sleep, Straker says. `Do you remember Turkey in 1974' (28 mins into the episode!)

> The 1970 reference is in Chris Bentley's book which just  shows that some references are flawed!,

I think Chris Bentley's book is correct -- Straker says:

  "Do you remember what happened in Turkey in 1970, Paul?"

The UK Carlton UFO DVD's have subtitles which say "1974", but
I think they've confused "Paul" for "Four".

Marc

Hi,

One other important thing we can infer from Commander Straker's dialogue with Nina Barry in 'Survival' is that her father must either work for SHADO, or at the very least be privy to its operation - security or otherwise involved in SHADO's inception.

There is also some inferred informality (Commander Straker does not mention her father's rank), as this dialogue is uttered in full hearing of all the operatives in the Control Sphere, from this we can indeed deduce that Commander Straker is well acquainted with the Barry family, otherwise he would have mentioned her father by rank and name.

I have seen occurrences of this in military circles where a husband and wife (in the services) will address each other by their title in the presence of other military personnel.

Regards, Griff

--- In [hidden email], "Lightcudder" <l.oatridge@...> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Griff... That is a pretty reasonable explanation, that Nina Barry was `new` to Moonbase. As for Subsmash being after Survival it still makes sense. Nina had trained on subs, and moved to get experience on Moonbase, but was still an experienced submarine operative.
>
> Your point about Straker calling her Miss Barry  only serves to emphasise  that perhaps there was a  deeper friendship between Nina and Straker as we saw in Subsmash.
>
> LtCdr!

Hi Marc,
 
subtitles say the same in the German DVD set - both in English and in German. And to me it sounds like "1974", not like "1970, Paul". Else there would be a few "Pauls" too many in that dialogue. But then, in this episode Bishop said Ross instead of Fraser - which IS a blooper.
 
The point however is, the 1974 fits the timeline as it is and it's on the DVD, the 1970 would stretch credibility a bit and it is not on the DVD, though why the episode shouldn't fit into 1980 also is the question.

Cheers
 
An
 

--- On Sat, 11/6/11, Marc Martin <[hidden email]> wrote:


From: Marc Martin <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [SHADO] Re: UFO Bloopers
To: [hidden email]
Date: Saturday, 11 June, 2011, 21:14


 



> Hi Marc.. In Long Sleep, Straker says. `Do you remember Turkey in 1974' (28 mins into the episode!)

> The 1970 reference is in Chris Bentley's book which just shows that some references are flawed!,

I think Chris Bentley's book is correct -- Straker says:

"Do you remember what happened in Turkey in 1970, Paul?"

The UK Carlton UFO DVD's have subtitles which say "1974", but
I think they've confused "Paul" for "Four".

Marc







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> That simply isn't the case. The minimum amount of years between marriage and her giving
> birth is 6 years, and that's stretching it. The times are very precisely mentioned. You
> can give or take 6-12 months, but not much more!

If Mary gave birth to Johnny in 1976, and Johnny was 8 when he gets hit by a car, that puts A QUESTION OF PRIORITIES taking place in 1984, which in itself seems wrong, because this is an early episode "seemingly" taking place shortly after the events in IDENTIFIED (which we know to be 1980).

And if QOP takes place in 1984, then when do SUB-SMASH and MINBENDER take place?  These both have flashbacks to events which took place in QOP...

Marc

> subtitles say the same in the German DVD set - both in English and in German. And to me
> it sounds like "1974", not like "1970, Paul". Else there would be a few "Pauls" too many
> in that dialogue.

Well, to me it's definitely "1970".  And it's always been that way, no matter what any subtitles say.  :-)  

Even the HDTV version says 1970.  :-)

And there is only one Paul in that sentence... at the end, so that's not too many.

Also, read the script:

                           STRAKER
               Paul, you remember what happened
               in Turkey in 1970.  Eighty thousand
               people killed.  A whole city destroyed.

Marc

Hi Marc,
 

> If Mary gave birth to Johnny in 1976, and Johnny was 8 when he gets hit
> by a car, that puts A QUESTION OF PRIORITIES taking place in 1984, which
> in itself seems wrong, because this is an early episode "seemingly"
> taking place shortly after the events in IDENTIFIED (which we know to be
> 1980).

I do not think that if timelines were really looked closely at, that production order is episode order by timeline.

There simply is no way for John having been born earlier, his birth is clearly dated as being in the spring that SHADO was "functional" (we do get the 7-10 years quote, so that fits). This date was NOT identical with "fully working" (which was 1980, if you stretch things maybe 1979). So you just might set QoP in 1983, if you are stretching things and also have John 7.

> And if QOP takes place in 1984, then when do SUB-SMASH and MINBENDER
> take place? These both have flashbacks to events which took place in
> QOP...

Obviously afterwards. ;-)

Cheers

An

> subtitles say the same in the German DVD set - both in English and in German.

Just watched this scene on some of the other UFO DVD sets.

  USA - no subtitles on these DVDs.
  Australian - no subtitles on these DVDs.
  Japan - subtitles say "1970"
  French - French subtitles say "1974"
  Italian - according to my wife, the dubbed Italian says "1970".
            The Italian subtitles say "1970".
            The English subtitles say "1974".

Marc

Hi Marc,
 
well, that case you have to place The Long Sleep somewhen around 1980-1982 or thereabouts. ;-)))  Poor Straker then would have had to work over some 7000 UFO reports while building SHADO.
 
Or you consider the "1970, Paul" that you hear a blooper, much like the Ross instead of Fraser, and the Carlton subtitles a correction thereof. Which isn't that bad, that way you are only one blooper short ;-)))
 
Cheers
 
An

--- On Sat, 11/6/11, Marc Martin <[hidden email]> wrote:


From: Marc Martin <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [SHADO] Re: UFO Bloopers
To: [hidden email]
Date: Saturday, 11 June, 2011, 21:39


 



> subtitles say the same in the German DVD set - both in English and in German. And to me
> it sounds like "1974", not like "1970, Paul". Else there would be a few "Pauls" too many
> in that dialogue.

Well, to me it's definitely "1970". And it's always been that way, no matter what any subtitles say. :-)

Even the HDTV version says 1970. :-)

And there is only one Paul in that sentence... at the end, so that's not too many.

Also, read the script:

STRAKER
Paul, you remember what happened
in Turkey in 1970. Eighty thousand
people killed. A whole city destroyed.

Marc








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Just how many dvd sets do you OWN Marc!! ( Laughter here ... I have two UK sets.. one I watch and one that is unopened!) But, its great to have a serious  discussion about relevant UFO topics. I am enjoying this topic!

LtCdr.

--- In [hidden email], "Marc Martin" <marc@...> wrote:

I consider the Carlton subtitles to be a mistake, and all subsequent DVD releases that make use of those subtitles also wrong.  The older Japanese and Italian subtitles and Italian dubbing all say 1970.

So we must assume that THE LONG SLEEP is supposed to take place in 1980.  In fact, I think that we must assume that most of the episodes take place in 1980 -- after all, "1980" is shown during the opening credits in most of the episodes.  :-)  

The 1984 in COMPUTER AFFAIR might be a mistake, but if it is one, it was a mistake in the script.

As for when Johnny was born and when he died, your logic certainly makes sense, but I'm not sure if that's what the writers had in mind.  :-)

Marc

On Sat, 11 Jun 2011 22:11 +0100, "An Delendir" <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Hi Marc,
>  
> well, that case you have to place The Long Sleep somewhen around 1980-1982 or thereabouts. ;-)))  Poor Straker then would have had to work over some 7000 UFO reports while building SHADO.
>  
> Or you consider the "1970, Paul" that you hear a blooper, much like the Ross instead of Fraser, and the Carlton subtitles a correction thereof. Which isn't that bad, that way you are only one blooper short ;-)))
 

> Just how many dvd sets do you OWN Marc!!

Too many?  :-)

I also have two USA sets, plus the Japanese laserdiscs (but
it's too much trouble to check the subtitles on those!)

Marc

And I feel guilty owning two sets and also two of Ed Bishop's autographs..( DONT tell my husband! :-)  )



--- In [hidden email], "Marc Martin" <marc@...> wrote:

Hi Marc,


> So we must assume that THE LONG SLEEP is supposed to take place in 1980.

That I actually think would be impossible. Col. Lake states in the beginning that incident was report #191 (or some such thing), to which Straker answers that current numbers are at #7000+. If the incident was in 1970 (where there definitely was no SHADO yet) that would mean that Straker dealt with roughly two UFO incidents per day, all along these ten years, while at the same time building SHADO and choosing and training staff, as well as setting up SID.

If that were the case, Mary would have probably shot him after half a year. ;-)

Seriously though, it's not possible. Also in Confetti Check we learn that but during the last year or so prior to the setting up of SHADO the necessary amount of staff was found. The Long Sleep has to be at least a few years after SHADO's first basic functionality. That again makes the 1974 and the subsequent 1984/85 the logical time for it to take place. From roughly 1975 to 1985 7000 UFO incidents may have been properly recorded.

> In fact, I think that we must assume that most of the episodes take
> place in 1980 -- after all, "1980" is shown during the opening credits
> in most of the episodes. :-)

Ah, but the title sequence is taken from the pilot, which is the one episode which without question does take place "then".

As for the rest of the episodes, if all of them take place in one year, my single thought is: the poor, poor sods!

;-)))

Cheers

An

Hi Marc,

> Too many? :-)
> I also have two USA sets, plus the Japanese laserdiscs (but
> it's too much trouble to check the subtitles on those!)

Sheesh, now I am absolutely green with envy! I have the UK video tapes, the German DVD set and the French DVD set, and everyone looks at me and shakes the head (how can anyone own more than one?).

You seem to have a very understanding family ;o)


Cheers

An

Why make the assumption that Straker personally investigated each of those
7000+ reports? Those reports could well have been forwarded from other
agencies - If we assume SHADO had field agents from the beginning, just 10
field investigators would take that number down to a few a month per agent.

 

  _____  

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of An
Delendir
Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2011 2:56 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [SHADO] UFO Bloopers

 

 

Hi Marc,

> So we must assume that THE LONG SLEEP is supposed to take place in 1980.

That I actually think would be impossible. Col. Lake states in the beginning
that incident was report #191 (or some such thing), to which Straker answers
that current numbers are at #7000+. If the incident was in 1970 (where there
definitely was no SHADO yet) that would mean that Straker dealt with roughly
two UFO incidents per day, all along these ten years, while at the same time
building SHADO and choosing and training staff, as well as setting up SID.

If that were the case, Mary would have probably shot him after half a year.
;-)

Seriously though, it's not possible. Also in Confetti Check we learn that
but during the last year or so prior to the setting up of SHADO the
necessary amount of staff was found. The Long Sleep has to be at least a few
years after SHADO's first basic functionality. That again makes the 1974 and
the subsequent 1984/85 the logical time for it to take place. From roughly
1975 to 1985 7000 UFO incidents may have been properly recorded.

> In fact, I think that we must assume that most of the episodes take
> place in 1980 -- after all, "1980" is shown during the opening credits
> in most of the episodes. :-)

Ah, but the title sequence is taken from the pilot, which is the one episode
which without question does take place "then".

As for the rest of the episodes, if all of them take place in one year, my
single thought is: the poor, poor sods!

;-)))

Cheers

An





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]