New in the SHADO Library

--- In [hidden email], "Marc Martin" <marc@...> wrote:
> So again, the flashback in CCAOK really only spans a couple years, no
> matter what your wiki claims... :-)

Marc,
Surely that was a given?  It's obvious from simply watching the episode that it doesn't stretch out longer than that.  Where's the problem?
Yours,
Denise

Hi Marc,

> Well, you're welcome to your opinion, but I don't agree.
> The building of SHADO HQ was the *easiest* thing they had to
> do to get SHADO up and running,
....
> The amount of time that passes between the SHADO go-ahead and Johnny's
> birth is also hinted at in the script -- just search on the word "months"
> and you'll find the following:

This isn't what is on screen. Hence it isn't canon. So sorry.

And I now understand the fundamental difference and problem here. Like Chris Bentley obviously did, you are working from the scripts instead of what you see on the screen.

Scripts however are not canon, only what is shown on screen in the end is. After the filming, after the editing, after whatever else is applied, like special effects. Nothing else.
This also is only logical, the editor alone can change the intent and meaning of a movie/episode (just look at the two different versions of QoP in Germany where a TV station's editors changed the entire meaning of the episode ending up with the drugs being delivered in time and John alive).
 
An editor is so far down the road from the screenwriter that to expect that anything the screenwriter wrote really has a meaning as to canon is not exactly making much sense. I for instance did not copy text from a script when I cited Alec and Ed, I wrote down what the two characters said, straight on the DVD. It's only that which counts.
 
So, no, I am afraid we are not even mildly discussing the same thing here. Which unfortunately is bound to create the discrepancies we look at.
 
It doesn't matter really what happened between the script stage and the finished episode, something must have, someone must have pieced things together and discovered that what the script says is blatantly impossible and so the episode was filmed and edited so it now makes better sense. That happens. Not just for UFO.
 
As to the wiki, we will be entering canon, that's the point of it. Not a mix of canon, scenes which landed on the editing floor and stories and dialogue never filmed at all. ;-)
 
Cheers,
 
An
 
 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Surely that was a given?  It's obvious from simply watching the episode that it
> doesn't stretch out longer than that.  Where's the problem?

The problem was that it had been awhile since I watched that episode... :-)

As for where the "Blooper" is, I'd say it was the scene at the end of CCAOK
that shows Ford and Nina in SHADO's first batch of recruits, when we had
already established from previous episodes that both of them were
relatively new to the organization.

Marc

So an accurate searchable transcript taken from the DVD is also not canon?
Because the references Marc made to the script were also in the transcript
taken from what was on the screen - not the script.

 

  _____  

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of An
Delendir
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 9:08 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [SHADO] UFO Bloopers

 

 

Hi Marc,

> Well, you're welcome to your opinion, but I don't agree.
> The building of SHADO HQ was the *easiest* thing they had to
> do to get SHADO up and running,
....
> The amount of time that passes between the SHADO go-ahead and Johnny's
> birth is also hinted at in the script -- just search on the word "months"
> and you'll find the following:

This isn't what is on screen. Hence it isn't canon. So sorry.

And I now understand the fundamental difference and problem here. Like Chris
Bentley obviously did, you are working from the scripts instead of what you
see on the screen.

Scripts however are not canon, only what is shown on screen in the end is.
After the filming, after the editing, after whatever else is applied, like
special effects. Nothing else.
This also is only logical, the editor alone can change the intent and
meaning of a movie/episode (just look at the two different versions of QoP
in Germany where a TV station's editors changed the entire meaning of the
episode ending up with the drugs being delivered in time and John alive).
 
An editor is so far down the road from the screenwriter that to expect that
anything the screenwriter wrote really has a meaning as to canon is not
exactly making much sense. I for instance did not copy text from a script
when I cited Alec and Ed, I wrote down what the two characters said,
straight on the DVD. It's only that which counts.
 
So, no, I am afraid we are not even mildly discussing the same thing here.
Which unfortunately is bound to create the discrepancies we look at.
 
It doesn't matter really what happened between the script stage and the
finished episode, something must have, someone must have pieced things
together and discovered that what the script says is blatantly impossible
and so the episode was filmed and edited so it now makes better sense. That
happens. Not just for UFO.
 
As to the wiki, we will be entering canon, that's the point of it. Not a mix
of canon, scenes which landed on the editing floor and stories and dialogue
never filmed at all. ;-)
 
Cheers,
 
An
 
 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>  Like Chris Bentley obviously did, you are working from the scripts instead of what you see on the screen.

Not at all... I base my opinion based on what I see on screen.

The script merely confirms it.

I agree that some episodes deviate from the script, but I don't see that in this particular case.

I'm still waiting for some convincing evidence that it took 6-7 years to build the underground
complex.  You haven't produced anything that has convinced anyone, as far as I can tell... :-)

Marc

is there a script for when the alien broadcasts the old lady to shado and then after his show, walks out to get vaporized by a ufo?
i still dont understand why that happened.
and maybe in the script there is a clue.
thank you,
jim

--- On Wed, 6/15/11, An Delendir <[hidden email]> wrote:


From: An Delendir <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [SHADO] UFO Bloopers
To: [hidden email]
Date: Wednesday, June 15, 2011, 9:07 AM


 



Hi Marc,

> Well, you're welcome to your opinion, but I don't agree.
> The building of SHADO HQ was the *easiest* thing they had to
> do to get SHADO up and running,
....
> The amount of time that passes between the SHADO go-ahead and Johnny's
> birth is also hinted at in the script -- just search on the word "months"
> and you'll find the following:

This isn't what is on screen. Hence it isn't canon. So sorry.

And I now understand the fundamental difference and problem here. Like Chris Bentley obviously did, you are working from the scripts instead of what you see on the screen.

Scripts however are not canon, only what is shown on screen in the end is. After the filming, after the editing, after whatever else is applied, like special effects. Nothing else.
This also is only logical, the editor alone can change the intent and meaning of a movie/episode (just look at the two different versions of QoP in Germany where a TV station's editors changed the entire meaning of the episode ending up with the drugs being delivered in time and John alive).
 
An editor is so far down the road from the screenwriter that to expect that anything the screenwriter wrote really has a meaning as to canon is not exactly making much sense. I for instance did not copy text from a script when I cited Alec and Ed, I wrote down what the two characters said, straight on the DVD. It's only that which counts.
 
So, no, I am afraid we are not even mildly discussing the same thing here. Which unfortunately is bound to create the discrepancies we look at.
 
It doesn't matter really what happened between the script stage and the finished episode, something must have, someone must have pieced things together and discovered that what the script says is blatantly impossible and so the episode was filmed and edited so it now makes better sense. That happens. Not just for UFO.
 
As to the wiki, we will be entering canon, that's the point of it. Not a mix of canon, scenes which landed on the editing floor and stories and dialogue never filmed at all. ;-)
 
Cheers,
 
An
 
 

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

teletype operator is not a command mos. you have to go to command school to be in charge of jobs instead of just doing them. like an eye surgeon might go his whole carrier without being in charge of a hospital.
jim

--- On Wed, 6/15/11, neesierie <[hidden email]> wrote:


From: neesierie <[hidden email]>
Subject: [SHADO] Re: UFO Bloopers
To: [hidden email]
Date: Wednesday, June 15, 2011, 8:17 AM


 




--- In [hidden email], "Marc Martin" <marc@...> wrote:
> And I think Straker's treatment of Ford as recent
> recruit to SHADO is still inconsistent with him
> being part of the first batch of recruits. With
> Ford's tenure, he should actually be in charge
> of something by 1980... :-)

Marc,
I always had a problem with that too! As pivotal as his role at the comm is for HQ, I really expected him to be a colonel. And Straker treats him like a flunky, which really is odd. You don't put a low level person in charge of the comm! I don't think his role was well-thought out at all.
Yours,
Denise








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

i believe that even with covert defense forces there has to be safety check on ground water bleed over, clay and foundation slide, property boundries and a whole bunch of other stuff, before they can start digging. i think that proceedure takes 6-8 months.
jim

--- On Wed, 6/15/11, Marc Martin <[hidden email]> wrote:


From: Marc Martin <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [SHADO] UFO Bloopers
To: [hidden email]
Date: Wednesday, June 15, 2011, 9:22 AM


 



> Like Chris Bentley obviously did, you are working from the scripts instead of what you see on the screen.

Not at all... I base my opinion based on what I see on screen.

The script merely confirms it.

I agree that some episodes deviate from the script, but I don't see that in this particular case.

I'm still waiting for some convincing evidence that it took 6-7 years to build the underground
complex. You haven't produced anything that has convinced anyone, as far as I can tell... :-)

Marc







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

An excellent observation Jim. You hit the nail on the head! Ford was a journalist prior to SHADO, unlike Straker, Freeman and Foster who all had military experience, therefore it is unlikely that he would be considered for command training.

LtCdr.
--- In [hidden email], "." <aquaboi@...> wrote:

Hi,

> Well, since I've actually seen bridges, sky-scrapers, and huge
> multi-story parking garages go up in less that 12 months (have
> you seen the foundation of a sky-scraper or a multi-story parking
> garage with a multi-acre footprint? You could hide SHADO HQ in the
> foundation/basement of most of them with parking spaces to boot.)
> So the insistence that HQ took 5+ years is not supported by reality.

You cite - exclusively - building types which are done with prefab units. I suggest you go and have a closer look at massive constructions without the benefit of any modular construction work.

My family's background is large government building construction  (hospitals, schools, military etc.), both as architects, as well as building companies. So, I really know what I talk about here. Prior to my first posting I made it a point calling one of the architects in my wider family. He confirmed my take on matters. 6 years he actually considers a tight schedule.

We aren't talking USA here. We are talking Great Britain, and we are talking about the building being hid from the public eye as well, a building which was not prefab built. We are talking also about building 80 ft underground and that has to have been hidden away completely from the public!

Planning stage: 12 months including the actual plans
Excavation and foundation, extending under the studios, building the cover up: 18 months (minimally)
Shell: 18 months
Fitting and training of staff: 24 months

====> minimally 6 years

> And putting the completion of HQ and the first batch
> of recruits to 1977 or thereabouts implies (if not outright
> states) that most of building of the sky-diver fleet, Moonbase
> and its ancillary support on Earth , launching of SID, training
> of all the necessary crews for those posts, all took place
> between 1977 and 1980.

Not really. All of that would have been built parallely. Three years to train the crews and get everything running looks good. To assume all and everything was done in the UK  *is* stretching things again way too thin.

> If it actually took 6-7 years to build HQ, how long did it
> take to build Moonbase and the Sky-divers and their bases?

It doesn't say. They were done in 1980, so most likely the full ten years.

> what was Straker doing while HQ was being built for six or so years?

Possibly working also on planning and executing the stuff you mention above? Or maybe reading 7,000 UFO reports? ;-)

Cheers

An

http://edstraker.net (The Ed Straker Herald)
http://ufopedia.edstraker.com (UFOpedia)

Hi Jim,

> is there a script for when the alien broadcasts the old lady to shado
> and then after his show, walks out to get vaporized by a ufo?

Why he did what? Walk out and gets vaporized?

The UFO is killing him because he is a defector. As to why he walks out, maybe to keep her from getting hurt.

Cheers

An

http://edstraker.net (The Ed Straker Herald)
http://ufopedia.edstraker.com (UFOpedia)

How do you say Ford was a journalist? I know they recorded him interviewing people about UFO’s.  Couldn’t you say those interviews were conducted to help start up SHADO ?

Bruce

From: lightcudder
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 1:03 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [SHADO] Re: UFO Bloopers

 
An excellent observation Jim. You hit the nail on the head! Ford was a journalist prior to SHADO, unlike Straker, Freeman and Foster who all had military experience, therefore it is unlikely that he would be considered for command training.

LtCdr.
--- In mailto:SHADO%40yahoogroups.com, "." <aquaboi@...> wrote:




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Cement trucks to not deliver prefab foundations. And the Army Corps of
Engineers can work damn fast.

 

  _____  

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of An
Delendir
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 10:13 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: RE: [SHADO] UFO Bloopers

 

 

Hi,

> Well, since I've actually seen bridges, sky-scrapers, and huge
> multi-story parking garages go up in less that 12 months (have
> you seen the foundation of a sky-scraper or a multi-story parking
> garage with a multi-acre footprint? You could hide SHADO HQ in the
> foundation/basement of most of them with parking spaces to boot.)
> So the insistence that HQ took 5+ years is not supported by reality.

You cite - exclusively - building types which are done with prefab units. I
suggest you go and have a closer look at massive constructions without the
benefit of any modular construction work.

My family's background is large government building construction (hospitals,
schools, military etc.), both as architects, as well as building companies.
So, I really know what I talk about here. Prior to my first posting I made
it a point calling one of the architects in my wider family. He confirmed my
take on matters. 6 years he actually considers a tight schedule.

We aren't talking USA here. We are talking Great Britain, and we are talking
about the building being hid from the public eye as well, a building which
was not prefab built. We are talking also about building 80 ft underground
and that has to have been hidden away completely from the public!

Planning stage: 12 months including the actual plans
Excavation and foundation, extending under the studios, building the cover
up: 18 months (minimally)
Shell: 18 months
Fitting and training of staff: 24 months

====> minimally 6 years

> And putting the completion of HQ and the first batch
> of recruits to 1977 or thereabouts implies (if not outright
> states) that most of building of the sky-diver fleet, Moonbase
> and its ancillary support on Earth , launching of SID, training
> of all the necessary crews for those posts, all took place
> between 1977 and 1980.

Not really. All of that would have been built parallely. Three years to
train the crews and get everything running looks good. To assume all and
everything was done in the UK *is* stretching things again way too thin.

> If it actually took 6-7 years to build HQ, how long did it
> take to build Moonbase and the Sky-divers and their bases?

It doesn't say. They were done in 1980, so most likely the full ten years.

> what was Straker doing while HQ was being built for six or so years?

Possibly working also on planning and executing the stuff you mention above?
Or maybe reading 7,000 UFO reports? ;-)

Cheers

An

http://edstraker.net (The Ed Straker Herald)
http://ufopedia.edstraker.com (UFOpedia)





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Oh, I can think of a least a couple of reasons the other UFO killed him -

1 He was a defector.

2 His mission was to plant disinformation (that there were friendly aliens)
and part of the plot was to kill one of their own to make it convincing

3 His mission was to plant something else (something that had not been
revealed to SHADO - a disease organism, bomb, fill in the blank)

4 His mission was to disrupt SHADO communications so that something else
could get through or happen.

3a, 4a  SHADO operatives were getting close and his mission had failed.

3b, 4b SHADO operatives were getting close and his mission had succeeded and
SHADO doesn't know it.

 

  _____  

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of An
Delendir
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 10:20 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [SHADO] UFO Bloopers

 

 

Hi Jim,

> is there a script for when the alien broadcasts the old lady to shado
> and then after his show, walks out to get vaporized by a ufo?

Why he did what? Walk out and gets vaporized?

The UFO is killing him because he is a defector. As to why he walks out,
maybe to keep her from getting hurt.

Cheers

An

http://edstraker.net (The Ed Straker Herald)
http://ufopedia.edstraker.com (UFOpedia)





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Hi Bruce, the interview was in 1969, so Ford couldn't have been working for SHADO then. He was  interviewing people on TV.. therefore he was a journalist reporting about a news story for one of the mass media. Maybe these interviews were conducted to help start SHADO, but Ford couldn't have known about SHADO as it hadn't even been approved.
LtCdr

--- In [hidden email], "Bruce Sherman" <brucesherman@...> wrote:

Hi

> So an accurate searchable transcript taken from the DVD
> is also not canon?

An accurante transcript would be.

> Because the references Marc made to the script were
> also in the transcript taken from what was on the screen
> - not the script.

I checked the DVD, it confirms what I remember...

=================================
Marc writes:

MARY
021-4834.... Oh, it's you Mother. How are you ? .... I'm
fine... Yes, I saw him today... Yes, he said it should be the
first week in April.... Hmm, just another two months... of course...

Actually onscreen is:

MARY
0218434....oh it's you mother ... how are you? .... Yes, yes, I'm fine. ...Yes I went to see him today ... Mm-huh. He confirmed the first week in April. .... Of course. ...
=================================

=================================
Marc writes:

FREEMAN
In about two months. It'll be spring; a good time to start.

Actually onscreen is:

FREEMAN
A few months. It'll be spring. A good time to start.
=================================

So, twice in such a short amount of lines the transcript (which isn't a transcript from the DVD, instead it obviously is a transcript from an actual script) differs significantly from what was actually filmed and what made it into the episode.

TWICE the actual episode explicitly and expressly (!) backs away from the timeline the writers seem to have initially thought up for the construction of SHADO. Which means that someone down the line, maybe the director, maybe Gerry Anderson, realized that it can't work that way.

Oh, and of course there is loads of other references in that script which were significantly changed for the actual filming and in what ended up on screen.

So, only accurate transcripts off the unchanged (from original editing) episodes could be called canon-adhering. What Marc cites is far from accurate.

Cheers

An

http://edstraker.net (The Ed Straker Herald)
http://ufopedia.edstraker.com (UFOpedia)

thank you,
and for that honerable mention, i am now going to release my 2'' wide UFO or ufo in small size plastic/paper model for peoples ornamental ufo needs.
since they are smaller than the usualy models, i think i can get the shipping down to just 3-5 dollars.......and the model is free. this is not themuch admired gary pislworth's model, this is my own drawings and plastic shell in clear, clear green, and clear blue shells.
a must for your rear view mirror or UFO equinox seasonal celebration tree, headquarters, or mini crashsite display.
sincerely,
jim
--- On Wed, 6/15/11, lightcudder <[hidden email]> wrote:


From: lightcudder <[hidden email]>
Subject: [SHADO] Re: UFO Bloopers
To: [hidden email]
Date: Wednesday, June 15, 2011, 10:03 AM


 



An excellent observation Jim. You hit the nail on the head! Ford was a journalist prior to SHADO, unlike Straker, Freeman and Foster who all had military experience, therefore it is unlikely that he would be considered for command training.

LtCdr.
--- In [hidden email], "." <aquaboi@...> wrote:







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

back actually in 1980, i saw in japan, kobe, a 12 story skyscraper go up, in total security, with shrouds over it in 12 weeks...............it had to have 4 floors underground as a stablizer and earthquake damage prevention measure.
they had that thing up and populated in just under one winter. im sure there are websites about that there.
jim

--- On Wed, 6/15/11, An Delendir <[hidden email]> wrote:


From: An Delendir <[hidden email]>
Subject: RE: [SHADO] UFO Bloopers
To: [hidden email]
Date: Wednesday, June 15, 2011, 10:13 AM


 



Hi,

> Well, since I've actually seen bridges, sky-scrapers, and huge
> multi-story parking garages go up in less that 12 months (have
> you seen the foundation of a sky-scraper or a multi-story parking
> garage with a multi-acre footprint? You could hide SHADO HQ in the
> foundation/basement of most of them with parking spaces to boot.)
> So the insistence that HQ took 5+ years is not supported by reality.

You cite - exclusively - building types which are done with prefab units. I suggest you go and have a closer look at massive constructions without the benefit of any modular construction work.

My family's background is large government building construction (hospitals, schools, military etc.), both as architects, as well as building companies. So, I really know what I talk about here. Prior to my first posting I made it a point calling one of the architects in my wider family. He confirmed my take on matters. 6 years he actually considers a tight schedule.

We aren't talking USA here. We are talking Great Britain, and we are talking about the building being hid from the public eye as well, a building which was not prefab built. We are talking also about building 80 ft underground and that has to have been hidden away completely from the public!

Planning stage: 12 months including the actual plans
Excavation and foundation, extending under the studios, building the cover up: 18 months (minimally)
Shell: 18 months
Fitting and training of staff: 24 months

====> minimally 6 years

> And putting the completion of HQ and the first batch
> of recruits to 1977 or thereabouts implies (if not outright
> states) that most of building of the sky-diver fleet, Moonbase
> and its ancillary support on Earth , launching of SID, training
> of all the necessary crews for those posts, all took place
> between 1977 and 1980.

Not really. All of that would have been built parallely. Three years to train the crews and get everything running looks good. To assume all and everything was done in the UK *is* stretching things again way too thin.

> If it actually took 6-7 years to build HQ, how long did it
> take to build Moonbase and the Sky-divers and their bases?

It doesn't say. They were done in 1980, so most likely the full ten years.

> what was Straker doing while HQ was being built for six or so years?

Possibly working also on planning and executing the stuff you mention above? Or maybe reading 7,000 UFO reports? ;-)

Cheers

An

http://edstraker.net (The Ed Straker Herald)
http://ufopedia.edstraker.com (UFOpedia)







[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

i didnt even think that he would consider her safety.
thank you, i had no idea.
jim

--- On Wed, 6/15/11, An Delendir <[hidden email]> wrote:


From: An Delendir <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [SHADO] UFO Bloopers
To: [hidden email]
Date: Wednesday, June 15, 2011, 10:20 AM


 



Hi Jim,

> is there a script for when the alien broadcasts the old lady to shado
> and then after his show, walks out to get vaporized by a ufo?

Why he did what? Walk out and gets vaporized?

The UFO is killing him because he is a defector. As to why he walks out, maybe to keep her from getting hurt.

Cheers

An

http://edstraker.net (The Ed Straker Herald)
http://ufopedia.edstraker.com (UFOpedia)








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

straker did say something like they were the very best chosen from thier various fields and carreers.
jim

--- On Wed, 6/15/11, Bruce Sherman <[hidden email]> wrote:


From: Bruce Sherman <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [SHADO] Re: UFO Bloopers
To: [hidden email]
Date: Wednesday, June 15, 2011, 10:24 AM


 



How do you say Ford was a journalist? I know they recorded him interviewing people about UFO’s. Couldn’t you say those interviews were conducted to help start up SHADO ?

Bruce

From: lightcudder
Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2011 1:03 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [SHADO] Re: UFO Bloopers

An excellent observation Jim. You hit the nail on the head! Ford was a journalist prior to SHADO, unlike Straker, Freeman and Foster who all had military experience, therefore it is unlikely that he would be considered for command training.

LtCdr.
--- In mailto:SHADO%40yahoogroups.com, "." <aquaboi@...> wrote:
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]